JESUITS DOMINATE THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH!
PART IIb

 

1/17/2010:  New comments added to Tom Norris's claims that the Sabbath has been "REFORMED" by Jesus, and Adventists can now work on it!

 

THE JESUIT RON CORSON RESPONDS TO OUR EXPOSE OF HIM!

Sabbath School Lesson In the Seventh-day Adventist Church Conceived by Jesuits:
*If the person who wrote this is not a Jesuit, then he was certainly trained by them!

 

NEW!  More Jesuit thoughts penned in the new Sabbath School Lessons for the New Year!  Below

DO ADVENTISTS CONCENTRATE ON END-TIME PROPHECY "TOO MUCH?"  NEW ADDITION!
NEW  The Horrifying Ignorance of the Adventist People, Part 3!
The Adventist people live life as usual expecting that the Lord would even feed them in the Time of Trouble even without them making any physical preparations.

 

Discover virtually all the writings of Ellen G. White for your java-enabled browser here.

Urgent message that needs to be much updated.  Created 10/6/2008

Labels
Probing the concept of understanding that, as the end draws near, people are not what they supposed to be recognized by what they claim to be, but by the positions they hold within their hearts.

Labels2.htm
Probing how to tell what a man is by what he believes and what positions he holds, part 2.
How the Worldwide Church of God was Destroyed!
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD:  A LESSON-BOOK FOR EVERY CHURCH OR ORGANIZATION UNDERGOING CHANGE!  Examining shocking and disruptive changes that took place against the Worldwide Church of God after the founder of that organization died and how it relates to similar changes in other churches and especially the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Jesuits Infiltrated the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and Now Dominate it
Jesuits infiltrated the Seventh-day Adventist Church and now horribly dominate it.
Strange Religion and Worship Literally Concocted Within the Seventh-day Adventist Church
The Celebration Movement and concept of "worship styles" examined.
More truth about the "Progressive" Adventists"!
A "Progressive" Adventist speaks and proves that he sticks around Seventh-day Adventists in order to cause trouble and demand they change and retract their beliefs!

THE HIDDEN POWER BEHIND THE NEW BIBLE VERSIONS!
The most crucial part of the danger of the new bible versions hardly discussed anywhere else!  WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO READ BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT WERE CREATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE LOST??

The Horrifying Ignorance of the Adventist People...
There is no ignorance as horrifying as suffocating ADVENTIST IGNORANCE!
The Horrifying Ignorance of the Adventist People, Part 2!
Strange ideas God's people have about the sign to leave and take flight from the cities!
The Horrifying Ignorance of the Adventist People, Part 3!
The Adventist people live life as usual expecting that the Lord would even feed them in the Time of Trouble even without them making any physical preparations.
The Horrifying Ignorance of the Adventist People, Part 4!
A terrible sorrow will engulf especially Adventists in the near future when they will suddenly be jailed and will not be able to present the truths of their faith even to fellow prisoners.  Their bibles and all their witnessing materials will be taken away from them.

Defending Ellen G. White from the doubts raised against her even by Adventist officials!
Ellen White defended against the doubts raised against her.  Anyone who attacks or dilutes or puts to doubt the authority of Ellen White, attacks far more than her and including the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Highlights into the war between the SDA denomination and the protesting independent ministries!
The war between the Seventh-day Adventist denomination and the protesting Independent Ministries more clearly defined.
Conclusion about the issue of labels and finding true identity
!
More indepth study to see the ramifications of not understanding how to tell who people are.  Showing how our society is being regressed and destroyed by people all among us, who are not what they claim to be, and who support the opposite agenda from even what they are elected to accomplish.

 

NEW:  JESUIT THOUGHTS IN THE NEAR YEARS DAY SABBATH SCHOOL LESSON!

1/1/2010:  On "Discussion Questions" under number 3 are these words:

3. Imagine two folk:  One is a Seventh-day Adventists who knows and believes all the doctrines--state of the dead, Second Coming, 1844, and so on.  This person, however, is mean, harsh, judgmental, and unloving.  There's another person who, while professing faith in Christ, has rejected all these teachings, accepting what we would deem as theological error.  Yet, this person is kind, forgiving, loving, and nonjudgmental, everything the "orthodox" Adventist isn't.  Though, of course, we don't know hearts, if you had to guess which one was closer to the kingdom of God, whom would you choose, and why?  What does your answer imply about what you deem is important in Christianity?

Notice it says that the second person is kind, loving, forgiving and non-judgmental, showing the fruits of the Spirit.  The problem is the way the question is worded.  It doesn't say that the second person has never heard THE TRUTH and therefore doesn't believe it.  It says that the second person heard "Adventist doctrine" AND HAS REJECTED IT.

First and again, the author here cannot refer to "Adventist doctrine" as TRUTH.  He refers to the truths given to us by God as "these teachings," or "what we would deem as" error or truth and then says that the second person who disagrees with our "doctrines" [instead of TRUTHS] actually believes "what we would deem as theological error."  To the author and anyone ecumenical it would sound "arrogant" and "uppity" for me to claim that the second person has rejected THE TRUTH by hearing and examining the TRUTHS handed down to the Adventist Church from God and SOLIDLY REJECTING THEM.  He is speaking as if his feet are not planted in God's True Church, which it actually spiritually is not.  If you are solidly planted in the Adventist Church, which is the True Church, by the Holy Spirit, then you will know that she was blessed with THE TRUTH handed down to her by that very Holy Spirit.

How then is it that TRUTHS handed down to GOD'S PEOPLE through THE HOLY SPIRIT can be REJECTED by someone who is kind, loving, gentle and forgiving, showing forth the FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?  Who then would God's people choose or would believe is a better Christian?  Can it be the "mean, harsh, judgmental and unloving" people who oppose church revolution that is merging the Adventist Church with all the others?  Or can it be those "sweet, loving, gentle and forgiving" ones who first enter to tell everyone they can debate about everything and must not exalt their ideas above anyone else before they then work to force-change the Adventist Church to an ecumenical component of a One World Church?

What do we have when we see a "kind, forgiving, loving and nonjudgmental" person who has decidedly rejected the truths handed down by the HOLY SPIRIT to the Adventist Church?  Here is what we have:

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The scripture says to: "Come out of her MY PEOPLE" that they may not partake of her sins and receive of her plagues.  Why then would "MY PEOPLE" be in Babylon and in such organizations?  Could it be because they are "kind, forgiving, loving and nonjudgmental?" 

WHY THEN WOULD THE LORD BE SO "HARSH" AND "UNLOVING" IN CONDEMNING THEM LIKE THIS IN SCRIPTURE?

The future will tell, because those same people will produce a reign of terror unbelievable since the foundation of the earth and spread that terror to all corners of the globe.  Naturally if such "kind" people are everywhere, Adventists wouldn't worry about the Constitution of the United States falling, and THEY WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT FALSE WARS BEING STAGED ALL OVER THE WORLD and watching horrible pictures of Iraqis or Afghanistanis dying.  Surely these "kind" people would inform the United States government "Under God," that God Himself will protect the United States from defeated dictators wallowing in no-fly-zones. 

During the Inquisitions, the Jesuits murdered untold numbers of the people of God.  This didn't bother them.  What did bother them was NAME-CALLING.  See because while they were doing this, a few brave people were screaming out, "ANTICHRIST" at them.  This helped cause their downfall and allowed freedom to bless the world since the Protestant Reformation.  That's why the "kind" people around us hyperventilate when Adventists warn their brothers that they're Jesuits and are FORCING illicit changes on the Adventist Church too.  But the United States is destroying herself by staging false wars, and hundreds of thousands of innocent people are being killed.  How do these "kind" people live after enduring "mean" and "harsh" people around them making them go irate, but then they yawn when they see the most ridiculous wars destroying the lives of the innocent?  How many of these "kind" people are against war?  If they would be upset enough to constantly talk about "mean" and "harsh" Adventists, why do they ignore us when we ask them how they survive and even live when we warned them not to support the wars they told us must be staged because, as they told us, "they [the terrorists] are going to kill us," instead of telling the Federal Government that God will protect this great nation from the greatest conspiracy theory behind the no-fly-zones in Iraq?

YES!  THESE ARE JESUIT THOUGHTS PENNED HERE IN THE QUARTERLY LESSON FOR THE NEW YEAR!

THE AUTHOR CLEARLY OPPOSES THE SECOND ANGELS MESSAGE.  All the churches rejected the Judgment hour message and experienced a spiritual fall.

WHICH ADVENTIST WOULD YOU RATHER BE WITH?  Even according to the question, GOD'S TRUE PEOPLE WILL ONLY BE FOUND AMONG THE "MEAN," "HARSH," AND "JUDGMENTAL" GROUP.  If you accept the other group, GOD'S MESSAGES SENT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL BE OPPOSED ETERNALLY.

 



 

Examination of the misconception of prophets passed on to the next page.

NEW Teacher's comments, Sabbath School Lesson, Tuesday, July 8, 2008:

Our Statement:  What is being attempted here is for us to understand that we must tailor our faith to the world.  If there is something the world likes, we have to win them to our faith by adopting what they like, be it their interest in music, sports, movie stars or the material world.

Consider This: Paul is quite specific in this passage in regard to his method of spreading the message. Two things stand out: He avoided extraneous matters, speaking only of Christ and His qualities and accomplishments, and he avoided going to places where someone else had already preached Christ.

What does this say to us today about, for example, our relationship to other Christian churches or efforts to convince other Christians of our distinctive doctrines?

The author of these words is ecumenical.  Ecumenical people oppose the Adventist Church proselytizing, or trying to win people from other Christian faiths into her faith, accepting her "distinctive beliefs."  If this is done, those whom they win over will resist the call to unite under "one Christian faith" with Rome.  Our spiritual leaders of yesteryear had no such concerns, but encouraged Adventists to win souls into the Adventist faith with full acceptance of her truths (distinctives).  They believed that back then, it was a time when the population should be tired with all the fairy tales they were constantly taught in church.  It was considered welcome for the Adventist Church to stand out.  They, back then, called the Adventist distinctives, simply: TRUTH!  They didn't have to always merely refer to them as "distinctives" as if it's merely a debatable opinion of a group.  There is a desperate effort to water down the Adventist peculiar characteristics now, especially with signs of her predictions rapidly coming true.

Back then in Paul's day however, he didn't have to win other Christians over into his "distinctive" group, for the confusion that now decimates what is left of Christendom today didn't exist back then.  The common perils of the day kept the Church of Christ back then much more united.  They all believed very much the same things.  But the message the author is here giving is that we are not to proselytize or try to win other Christians to our peculiar faith using our special doctrines.  We are just to merely work along with them to change the world using methods the other churches use.  When they enter the Seventh-day Adventist Church, they will then be bombarded with a marked silence about our peculiar characteristics also, except from specialized places they would likely need to fish for. 

Indeed, they don't want us to stand out and proclaim our peculiar special qualities:  they work for the opposite, to make us be ABSORBED into the much bigger conglomeration with the hope we will drop off all things out of harmony with the great uniting under the Antichrist.

In these lessons, the author himself had to write a long article dictating why he doesn't quote from Ellen White in the sabbath school lessons he authored.  That article is now placed at the bottom.

Much of the arguments used by him were used against us by the strange "former Adventists" who attacked the Adventist Church for claiming it is the true church, but remained calm when we informed them that a much bigger Church in Rome claims the same and with a horrible history for anyone who didn't agree.  They referred often to the Veltman report as the continuing struggle to prove that a prophet documenting historical events like a historian using other sources is supposed to prove how that person is not a prophet.  That battle still rages on.

Why he had to do that we believe is obvious.  He is pushing a movement that is illegitimate for true religion.  He therefore now has to express a concern that never bothered the Adventist Church throughout its history: Ellen White being quoted.  His work there argues often that Ellen White is not fully authoritative, but that her writings may be subject to the judgments or thrones of those who read.  In his explanation for why he will not quote Ellen White, he brings up the issue of the Shut Door vision that Ellen White had, and the fact that she copied from other authors as proof Ellen White doesn't always hold her office as prophet well.  You know we have already dealt with these issues before on the Seventh-dayAdventism.com website quite well showing that these things in no way takes away the power or authority of God's prophet.  The authors of the New Testament copied from each other.  You are not expected to know this. 

Everyone we know of who is ecumenical or who pushes the foreign movements under the garb of tolerance we have seen naturally know they cannot get their shady movements forward with people who strongly believe in the reliability of Ellen White as a true prophet.  Remember, the purpose of the movement is to destroy all barriers between the Adventist Church and all the others in a drive to unite them with Rome.  Could it be that Ellen White is one such barrier?  In each and every case when they, in any way, pull down the authority of Ellen White, they always naturally and incrementally raise their authority higher and higher, first pushing movements claiming we can take or leave, and then showing us we cannot refuse.  We are confident this author knows very well the "worship styles" movement forced upon the Seventh-day Adventist Church has caused all kinds of trouble.  Why he can't see it and thence stop pushing it despite his issue that believers must always have the right to take things or leave them speaks for his very vision where he can see problems with Ellen White.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church quoted Ellen White throughout all its history in the Sabbath school lessons whether or not non-Adventists would read their literature and whether or not people would misquote her.  We are neither ashamed of Ellen White nor of quoting her when it comes time to send messages within the Adventist faith or dealing with Adventist issues.  Though Ellen White's words were quoted in our Sabbath school lessons all throughout our history, it was obvious that non-Adventists at times got a hold of them.  We saw Jesuits publishing some of those Sabbath school lessons on the internet in order to attack them.  That doesn't bother us to the point of changing the practice. 

The author claims he doesn't quote Ellen White because too many Adventists misquote her, often making statements they claim came from Ellen White, yet they cannot produce the actual book, chapter or section the words came from.  He says that this is serious enough to make him want to change the standing practice of the church, making sure Ellen White is never quoted in literature.

Question:  If you knew that people were misquoting important writings for the church, would you be more willing to take those writings away from the view of the church, or more put them in view?  Would you believe that to take those writings away from being properly quoted in Sabbath School lessons, leaving the book, chapter or page with the quote will more make people quote Ellen White properly, or less?  If you took her writings out of the Sabbath School lessons and other literary works, would you solve the problem of people misquoting her? or would you make it get worse?  What about with the bible?  If you found people were more misquoting bible verses, should you take bible verses out of our publications?

Lesson 7: The Puzzle of His Conduct *

http://sabbathschoollessons.com/archive/296-puzzle-his-conduct.htm

Introduction: Have you ever had a spiritual leader who had an approach that did not fit your style? Did some new worship ideas make you uncomfortable? Our lesson this week is about some of Jesus' conduct which was quite puzzling. It made a lot of people angry. When we get angry about the actions of our spiritual leaders, how can we know who is truly doing God's will? How can we know when we need to speak out and when we need to just keep quiet? Let's jump into our study and see what answers we can find in the Bible!

    1. Consider your pastor. Would this text apply to your views on your pastor?


    2. According to this text, Jesus not only ate more food and drank more wine ("drunkard") than John the Baptist (who was a Nazarite - and did not touch grapes), He hung around with bad people. Is this by itself proof that Jesus was doing the wrong things?


      1. If not, how can you know?


      2. Is your spiritual leader allowed to do just anything? (The answer is found in the last part of Matthew 11:19: "Wisdom is proved right by her actions." We should not judge based on the fact that a religious leader does not do what we would do. Instead, we need to look at the results of the leader's actions.)


        1. Does this support the old adage that the "ends justify the means?" (No. Look again at the illustration. "Children" (the spiritually immature) expect the leader to do what they want. Jesus is not endorsing sin as a method of promoting the kingdom. However, He is saying do not impose your personal preferences on your leaders. Contemporary praise and worship not what you prefer? If it brings in the crowds to hear the gospel, don't complain. Especially, don't make false charges.)

        2.  

        [False charges?  You mean we can tell?  It's not "what's false to you may not be false to others on a different 'side?'"  Now why couldn't the Adventist Church always consider these things when Pentecostalism was around even during the days of our pioneers?  That movement was older far than my grandmother!  Many commentators even in favor with the contemporary form of praise and worship claims it came from there.  You mean up till now we can't tell the fruits?

        If it brings in crowds to hear the Gospel as had happened with the Worldwide Church of God, what's the problem?  Were many crowds "coming into" the Worldwide Church of God?  Are there more crowds there then? or now? 

        We're trying to show that the issue with those causing internal turmoil in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is not necessarily because of a love for either money or souls.  True, they want to capture the whole world, but their issue is really the concept of ecumenism under Rome, to first capture institutions that control the masses, and yet, after that, comes a horrible depopulation campaign.  They need to do this because they assume, and rightly so, that if these institutions are left intact, THEY MAY CAUSE TROUBLE WHEN THE DESPERATE PUSH FOR A GLOBAL UNITING UNDER ROME BECOMES MORE A MANDATE BY LAW AND THROUGH UNNECESSARY CRISES!  As their brothers capture control of the United States government and the rest of the world, an actual depopulation campaign for horrible carnage is right around the corner.  These in the churches are performing another part of the plan.  It is not really numbers they are actually looking for.  It is controlling power to steal what remains so that more of their deception can be spread and it be thought that true Adventists are not really Adventists at all, for they didn't change with the times.  If it was, there would be no plan to mass-annihilate anyone.  The issue, at least now, is to define what Seventh-day Adventism is, so that when people raise the voice and proclaim that Rome is the Antichrist 666, a persistent counter-cry will desperately claim that those are merely the voices of disgruntled offshoots who don't even define what Seventh-day Adventism actually is.

        The Worldwide Church of God had much more members before that internal treason when Herbert W. Armstrong was in power than now, yet the ones orchestrating change could care less.  We don't know about statistics for the Seventh-day Adventist Church when it comes to members, but we often heard church officials complaining about a huge loss of tithe revenue in the face of very successful "burgeoning" independent ministries.

        Is the issue even crowds? or the necessity to push false agendas warned as coming from the Antichrist?  Were false charges made against those who opposed these movements?  Why would ministers want to push their "personal preferences" on the whole church regardless of whether or not it would even jeopardize its financial prosperity as had happened to the Worldwide Church of God?  Why are all their personal preferences not haphazard, but are well planned, all coming the same way with the same features while claiming no one knows where it will lead?  Were those who pushed these movements free from making charges?  What kinds of people are in no wise restrained from violating all the rules they push on others.]

We confronted many people who approached us, even when studying prophecy, telling us that we concentrate on those things "too much."  Here the Adventist Church stands before a terrible time of trouble where the present truth about prophecy is about to be fulfilled and the nations of the world will take our bibles away from us.  As we therefore urge people to enter training so that each Adventist can give Revelation Seminars using their own homes and plasma or LCD TVs or projectors to give them in their neighborhoods, tolerant people approach us to fight, telling us we have to stop because we concentrate on those things "too much."  We have found not a one of the laypersons in the Adventist Church being able to give Revelation Seminars and being able to quote scriptures in giving them without the use of a bible (memorized).  According to these, the problem will be solved if we don't concentrate on these things.

The solution to quoting Ellen White correctly is not to dismiss her writings.  The solution is to put them more prominently into view and to urge members to quote her more correctly.  If you had a choice where you must pick which writings or opinions you would read or hear in the church, would you pick Ellen White's writings? or our current church leaders?  If you were given an ultimatum, what would you choose?  The author here is saying the solution to misquoting Ellen White, is to take her writings more away from viewing.  If you thought to take away the writings of Ellen White because they're controversial and people might misquote them, WOULD YOU SUBSTITUTE THE AUTHORITY OF LEADERS DEMANDING THAT YOU MAKE CHANGES AND MAKE THEIR DEMANDS STRONGER AND MORE AUTHORITATIVE INSTEAD?

Whosoever doesn't like that longstanding practice in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, should unite with those who don't like it, and, ultimately, that is what's going to happen anyway.  It's just that some people are determined to take as many others with them as possible along with the entire denomination.  We believe if any of you don't like that practice, you should go start your own church or go to another one that has your same sentiments.  Don't bother us with your very "tolerant" beliefs, and don't bother going to the independent ministries with your beliefs either.  They will NOT take you! 

Whatever calamity this practice of quoting her in our Sabbath school lessons has ever caused has not been demonstrated for us to have a change in this now that prophecy is being fulfilled and heresies are coming in upon us.  The more the signs of the times are being fulfilled with rapidity is supposed to be THE MORE we quote what she has to say and not the less!  Here now is our examination of that work:

There are many many examples in our publications to show that they were written by Jesuits.  Here is just one example in the textbox to the right under "Lesson 7."  It is from "The Wonder of Jesus" 2 Quarter 2008 Sabbath School Lessons.  Here we show you why this work was conceived by infiltrating Jesuits in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

The introduction is first written to put the accusation upon honest members that they are imposing their own tastes upon the church, ministers or body by resisting ministers or pastors who continue to insist on FORCING illegitimate revolution and doing things they well know has offended a majority of the members within the Adventist Church and caused many of them to leave.  The stimulus is the unannounced, illegitimate and persistent demand that the Adventist Church must change.  It is not the response that is causing the trouble.  It is the stimulus.  It is a form of reverse psychology being used here.  Although the minister himself is imposing his "style" of doing things on the whole body, they are making it out to look like those who object to his treason are the ones "playing God."  We beg you to remember a while ago, they were so nauseatingly wishy-washy on all kinds of controversial issues, they claimed they can never rule on specific issues because those issues were "touchy" and would offend members.  Putting on this false face of tolerance and allowing licentious beliefs and practice among Adventists, they then soon evolved into people who demanded changes that soon separated multitudes of the best Adventists from the denomination without any care about offending these little ones.  The offense is actually in their corner.  What happened was that the status of the church is already established and was successful.  They didn't like it so they determined that they must change it.  Just by the positions they earlier took against offending members who came to their conclusions by the Holy Spirit, we can understand that they are the ones in the wrong.  Then something moved in to disrupt the established order, infringing on the domain of countless of God's people.  They have to make it look like their victims are the ones at fault and "playing God."

Just like they pretend and make sermons stating they have no idea why they're being attacked by hateful and "critical" pharisaical members who oppose their treason, so they continue their agenda proving no one can ever teach them to abstain from doing things that unnecessarily offends God's people.  The agenda is so crucial, they never give up, but must continue to work and assume that most Adventists don't know what is actually going on.  Often, after persistently being resisted, they would impatiently ask, "WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL ANYWAY!"  Shouldn't that question be pushed on those who saw the order of the church what it was, pretended that they were tolerant and then moved in to change everything on their judgments alone and completely disrespected and disregarded God's people even to threatening the financial prosperity of the denomination?  [Many of the members left and rightfully took their financial support with them].  If it's no big deal LEAVE IT ALONE, OR FORM YOUR OWN CHURCH OR GO TO ANOTHER CHURCH THAT HAS YOUR AGENDA IN IT!  It's quite clear it's a big deal for you!  WHY?  Why would this desire to change the church even make you hypocritize against your own principles and cause disruption never before known in the Adventist Church?  Go to another church to find what you want!  There are many such churches as this same movement is destroying churches from every other denomination everywhere.  Remember, this isn't the only church being attacked like this!

Their work here, as typical, is to pretend to be "balanced" and to ask how can members know when to be angry or object to something, or when to just keep quiet.  Even here they're pretending that they're tolerant and have no actual preference.  THEY WANT THE MEMBERS TO KEEP QUIET and let them destroy the body from inside.  They are actual despots, but usually their first premise is to make their victims out to be what they actually are.  Therefore, when considering whether or not members should be angry or should keep quiet about the movements being imposed upon them, should that include ministers who see their movements being opposed?  What about members who expose these things so that the ministers themselves can know when to start chasing or expelling "hateful" and "critical" members or when they should leave the order of the church alone?  If the Adventist Church doesn't have the changes that they want and Adventists are not the greatest break-dancers during the worship hour, aren't there churches that already have the spirit manifestations they want?  Should they know when to keep quiet or WHEN TO STOP OFFENDING LOYAL MEMBERS WHO HAVE AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP TO JESUS? or when to stop telling members from the pulpit they have no idea why they're being attacked or distrusted?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.
christian.adventist/msg/544c5e4c9e213592
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.bible, alt.christnet.evangelical, alt.religion.christian.adventist, alt.religion.christian.baptist
From: john w <j<no>@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 07:37:38 -0700
Local: Thurs, May 29 2008 10:37 am
Subject: Re: The Churchmen vs The Sabbath

[The following poster on the newsgroups was attacking the Sabbath against the arguments of someone else.  His words are typical of even the "former Adventists" now constantly attacking the Adventist Church on the internet.  Watch:]

First, no modern Bible student would seriously consider the "arguments" of someone who uses as "proof texts" passages from the KJV.  There are other versions that are equally as reliable that are MUCH easier to understand and -- therefore-- to work with.
 

[He just said that they are equal, and then said that all other versions could be taken seriously BUT the King James Version cannot.  This shows ultimately where the "tolerant" ones are taking us as already shown.  They claimed we must be broadminded and use other options even with the bibles on the benches in church.  In many cases a short time later all the King James Version bibles disappear even through being worn out, but are never replaced, and that is reflected in most of the sermons given on the pulpit, from the references they quote from.  Many times it works out that they are telling us we can use every version BUT the King James Version.

We encountered much more startling documentation of an actual agenda against the King James Version other than this.  Its just that we can't seem to find it as yet.]

In the work here shown, every single biblical link is referenced from the New International Version bible.  We showed that the most hidden agenda of these bibles is to suppress scripture memorization which will be shown to be absolutely vital in overcoming the Beast and his Image in the near future.  Hence here also they claim to be tolerant and attack King James Version only bible Christians, but show they actively quote from every other version making sure they avoid the King James Version.  At the same time, the most virulent Adventist haters even claiming to be former Adventists are attacking the Adventist Church on forums claiming that Adventists have to use the King James Version in order to perpetuate, "their heresies and errors."  Open Jesuits attack the King James Version claiming that without it the Adventist Church cannot uphold it's doctrines.  We found that to be largely true.  The different wording of the other versions reveal they were indeed created with Adventism in mind to make it impossible for Adventists to defend much of their special beliefs using them.

This work here is putting treasonous pastors and infiltrators into the position of Jesus.  Under the actual setting, Jesus was not a priest or minister within the Sanhedrin or synagogue.  He did not want to change the Jewish Church BY INFILTRATING IT, coming from the top down.  Any change they needed to make, JESUS SHOWED THEM BY HIS LIFE SO THAT THEY CAN CHOOSE!  He made no attempt to go above them and attend board meetings in order to force upon the Jews what they did not want.  Those we are exposing for treason here demand that the Adventist Church change.  The Jesuits we met on the internet, especially the "former Adventists" are in favor of the changes and want them!  It is a step-stage plan first to merge our worship with the other churches while constantly suppressing everything given by God to us that separates us from the other Christian Churches.  Every ecumenical person we met on the internet, could not acknowledge the bold death threats against all non-Catholic life!  They refused to publicly condemn those threats specifically, detailing the hate within them and the Jesuit Oath in public like they found occasion to do every moment against us.  What does this mean about our leaders in the Seventh-day Adventist Church who are ecumenical?  What does that say about people who head Promise Keepers?  Would you like to carry the death threats we're exposing to your next insane ecumenical rally?

Jesus did want change among the Jewish Church, BUT HE DID NOT ENTER AS A PASTOR OR CONFERENCE PRESIDENT OR INFILTRATE TO ACCOMPLISH SUCH THINGS.  There was no change He requested that was NEW, claiming that He didn't know where it would take God's people, but they must have it anyway: "let's wait and see!"  Anyone could tell His words were not strange, but were scriptural.  He sat in the same spaces as the members and not the minister who is gyrating his body to the "new" music in church.  For decade after decade people who demanded that the Adventist Church change were called, "dissidents."  What we're witnessing now is perplexity due to our unpreparedness to accept the fact that dissidents can infiltrate into the inside and actually capture positions of influence and power.  The same is true with governments all over the world.

In the first section, the third sub-section and the third sub-sub-section is written the following words: 

Why should Jesus be angry at those who wanted to err on the "conservative" side? (When I was growing up in religious schools, I endured all sorts of rules. It never occurred to me that having all of these rules might in itself be a sin. It seemed that only violating the rules could be a sin. Only in recent years have I begun to understand the Deuteronomy 4:2 principle: it is just as wrong to add rules God has not required as it is to teach you can ignore the rules which God has required. Both put you in the position of usurping God.)

Notice that he is giving credence to the tactic of separating God's people into classes [He talked about people who were on the conservative "side."]  We have shown this is a tactic created to give leaders of any organization illegitimate power to commit treason, by first confusing the members, placing them into classes, then demanding changes formerly opposed by the order, and then upon any objection to what they're doing as they then suddenly push for illegitimate revolution, they reply claiming they're merely expressing their opinions they got from the class they accepted.  Neither the Adventist Church historically nor scripture talks about Christians on the "conservative" or "liberal" nor any other "style" or "side."  They divided Adventists into different classes based upon their different preferences those in treason earlier allowed during the days they pretended to be tolerant.  Immediately once people resist their attempts at revolution, they are then accused of being, "divisive."

Notice then that he is also spitting upon the entire history of the Adventist Church by casting doubt upon its history of making and enforcing rules.  Which among you growing up even decades ago and were in church or in our Christian schools did not notice the kinds of people who had such thoughts?  As you read the words above, you can't recognize that you've heard them before in your life by people whom the church has always pronounced as dissidents?  How is it that such people could now be spiritual guardians?

Under sub-section two is found these words:

2. Read Matthew 11:18-19. What does this have to with the children? (The children want the "others" to dance or mourn in accord with the wishes of the children. Jesus says that He and John the Baptist did not do what others expected, the result was that they were called names.)

The lesson here therefore is twisted to point to his concerns.  Pastors are forcing illegitimate revolution on the Adventist Church under the most profound deceit and contrary to their earlier behavior.  The problem now is, THEY WILL NOT RELENT NOR GIVE UP EVEN IF IT COSTS THE CHURCH ITSELF!  We are trying to show you how the same thing happened to the Worldwide Church of God!...

1. Consider your pastor. Would this text apply to your views on your pastor?

2. According to this text, Jesus not only ate more food and drank more wine ("drunkard") than John the Baptist (who was a Nazarite - and did not touch grapes), He hung around with bad people. Is this by itself proof that Jesus was doing the wrong things?

From this example you must understand there are two forces fighting.  One is for Seventh-day Adventism and the other is against it.  The question should be, "If members don't like being lied to and were warned when they joined the Adventist Church that false ideas, theories and movements would be coming into the faith they supported and funded dearly, is that by itself proof they are 'hateful,' 'critical' and 'offshoots' because they believed what they were warned about and now oppose its fulfillment?"

Now take note of what happens as the author continues:

  1. If not, how can you know?


  2. Is your spiritual leader allowed to do just anything? (The answer is found in the last part of Matthew 11:19: "Wisdom is proved right by her actions." We should not judge based on the fact that a religious leader does not do what we would do. Instead, we need to look at the results of the leader's actions.)

History Will Judge Results!

Bush embraces Britain's moves on Iran, Afghanistan
June 16, 2008

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=2008-06-16_D91B62RO1&show_article
=1&cat=breaking

"I have no problem with how Gordon Brown is dealing with Iraq," Bush said. "He's been a good partner."

The two leaders, both weakened by low public approval, [President Bush has a terrible talent of parading himself with other world leaders with smiles while under terrible disapproval by the global population.  This after starting the most amazing war of aggression against an already defeated dictator in order to send a message to world leaders that they must hear their people!  He set out, like the Third Reich, to save innocent lives and took much more than the enemies he was sent to remove or restrain.]  traded compliments and emphasized common stands on such other global problems as Zimbabwe, Myanmar and Darfur and a stalled world trade pact. They then headed to Belfast where, along with Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, they were to visit the Protestant and Catholic leaders of Northern Ireland's power-sharing government.

In London, Brown praised Bush for his "steadfastness and resoluteness." [The same steadfastness that, notwithstanding all evidence and common sense, makes leaders believe that principles from nazism and communism will lead to global "peace" and "freedom."] Said Bush of Brown, "He's tough on terror and I appreciate it." [We asked every propagandist on the internet to produce their posts or writings on the internet they ever made in concern for terror before Bush became president.  They still haven't surrendered a single one yet!  We asked them to ask Osama Bin Laden if Bush was tough on terror, but they were too concerned about our mental health to understand what we were saying.]....

Questioned about his own reflections on Iraq, Bush offered no apologies.

He said that history will judge how the United States waged the war[When freedom is destroyed and citizens are in concentration camps and Martial Law, will they not say that history will judge whether or not their decisions were wrong?  They went looking for the WMDs and didn't find any!  When will history judge anything?  President Bush has been for years showing the world that HISTORY WILL JUDGE WHETHER OR NOT THE THIRD REICH OR THE INQUISITIONS WERE VALID REGIME CONCEPTS!  His principles for security came from there!] whether more troops should have been deployed and whether they should have been positioned differently. But he said he had no doubts about deposing Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. "Absolutely it's necessary," the president said.

HISTORY WILL JUDGE RESULTS!

In number two just above, he is saying just what the treason claimed we must accept.  We must "wait and see."  The Celebration "Worship Style" is an illicit, covertly intolerant and blasphemous parasitic movement spiked with Catholic principles and it was forced on the Adventist Church completely unannounced by the denomination.  According to what is being said, we must allow it to come to fruition, THEN when we see bad fruit in it, then we can reject it.

Would that mean once we see it was bad, we can uprise against it?  What then about the other "classes" of Adventists who don't see the same as we?  If we see the fruit is bad, we won't hear our ministers telling us we're just imagining things and that there are other classes of Adventists who see things differently?  You mean God's church MUST go through this?  Who decreed and went through the decision that we must go through this?  If we find it's bad, how can we then change it back to the way it was?  Look at the Worldwide Church of God that went through similar things!  The ones most loyal to what they all had believed had to leave and form their own groups, and WHEN THEY STRUGGLE TO PUT HERBERT W. ARMSTRONG'S MATERIAL BACK IN PRINT from their own independent and private organizations they had to establish, THEY WERE TOLD BY THE LEADERS OF THE MAIN BODY THEY HAD TO LEAVE WHO STAGED THE REVOLUTION THAT THEY CANNOT DO THAT BECAUSE THEY OF THE MAIN BODY HAVE THE COPYRIGHT TO HIS MATERIAL!!

So you see the mission was to destroy the concepts and beliefs of the Worldwide Church of God.  They prevented any opportunity for others to then see the other option and see what Herbert W. Armstrong actually taught, AND IT ALL STARTED THE SAME WAY THE FIGHT WITH THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH STARTED: WITH A DRIVE FOR "TOLERANCE!"  Can we see now what would happen if we show TOLERANCE to apostasy?  It would be infinitely better to show tolerance to a campfire and not put it out!  They literally apologized to the ecumenical community for the original Worldwide Church of God members as even many Adventist leaders did in documentation put out by the independent ministries showing them apologizing to churches and even the Catholic church for members who were spreading the National Sunday Law books both here and in other countries!  As you can see, the ones who staged the revolution are showing the victims that they can't turn things back after witnessing the bad fruit.  Quick to talk of law if those who love Herbert W. Armstrong dare to try to republish his material, the ones who staged the revolution call their victims, "legalists."

All the needless division, placing of blame upon the innocent people, fraternizing with the World Council of Churches and Rome, affiliations and planning behind the backs of the Adventist people with organizations long repudiated by the Adventist Church for its entire history, occult symbols in our publications, assaults upon the most loyal of Adventists and all already shows us that it's bad.  Is he telling us that none of this must be counted in order to determine whether or not the fruit is bad already?

Instead they should consider the history of the Adventist Church that never allowed any of these things and therefore didn't cause the turmoil they're showing us they must cause under their brand of cloaked intolerance.  Look back throughout all of history and tell us if the results should not rather backup the honest Adventists who oppose these movements!

 

What About Ellen White?

by Bruce N. Cameron, J.D.
Copr. 2005

Readers ask why I generally do not cite Ellen G. White in the lessons. The primary reason is that the lessons posted on this web site are copied from the originals posted at GoBible.org. The GoBible web site follows the Adventist Adult Sabbath School lesson quarterly, but is aimed at Bible students from all denominations. My son/webmaster, Blake, and I believe that a large percentage of the GoBible readers are not Seventh-day Adventists.

Since the quarterly cites Ellen White extensively, those Adventists who read the quarterly and the lessons at GoBible.org or SabbathSchoolLessons.com already have the benefit of Ellen White’s insight. Citing her is not necessary for Adventists.

Those who are not Adventists may stop reading the lessons if they see regular citations to Ellen White. Thus, not citing her does no damage to Adventists and avoids problems with members of other churches.

The secondary reason for not citing Ellen White in these lessons involves a much more complex and important problem and discussion.

The Problem:

The secondary reason why the teaching outlines generally do not cite Ellen White reflects a concern about the misuse of her writings. Over the years I often been troubled when I visited Sabbath School classes in other Seventh-day Adventist churches. What I frequently found was that class members have their quarterlies open on their laps and their Bibles closed. When they respond to questions given by the teacher, most often they recite their own views or what they think they can recall from Ellen White. I believe the primary source for every Sabbath School question and every Sabbath School answer should be the Bible.

The Bible is not very long; about 1,100 pages. A number of popular contemporary novels are about the same length. It should not be “heavy lifting” for someone who wants to know about God to purchase a contemporary translation of the Bible, such as the New Living Translation, and read God’s word from cover to cover. (For young eyes, the NLT is only 730 pages long, for old eyes (large print) it is 1,406 pages long.)

According to the Ellen G. White Estate, Ellen White’s writings are contained in 50,000 pages of manuscript as reflected in her published books and articles. Since many Sabbath School students do not seem particularly well versed in their Bible, my guess is that their effective knowledge of what Ellen White has written is close to nonexistent. After all, in contrast with the Bible, there are 49,000 more pages of her works to read!

Worse, it has been my experience that when Adventist students are in a Sabbath School class discussing the Bible lesson, if anyone “authoritatively” cites what Ellen White said on the subject, the discussion ends. After all, who is bold enough to dispute the prophet? Especially, many Adventists believe that Ellen White is “authoritative” (meaning “conclusive”) commentary on disputes over Bible interpretation.

[What then about church leaders who make statements in support of revolution, and persist and persist in doing this?  Should the discussions end about this matter WHILE THEY ARE YET PUSHING THESE MOVEMENTS ON US AS WE'RE ARGUING? 

***Friends, THE ARGUMENTS WERE ALREADY OVER ON THESE ISSUES WITH THEM!  THEY PUSHED THESE MOVEMENTS ALREADY UNANNOUNCED UPON THE ADVENTIST PEOPLE!  THEY WEREN'T INTERESTED IN ARGUING OR DEBATING ABOUT ANYTHING THEY DECREED!***

Aren't you supposed to understand they are showing you the discussion on these movements have already ended even before you ever heard about these new movements?  They were pushed silently and unannounced before even all the friction that has resulted since--even before anyone knew about the movement.  Why did discussion figuratively already end well before the subject of Ellen White commenting about these movements ever developed?

The question would be whether or not discussion (or confusion) ends with statements from Ellen White, or ends with statements from the new wave of leadership who "tolerantly" cannot accept NO to their devices and imaginations?  DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD QUOTE OR LISTEN TO OUR LEADERS LESS?  In every case in point here, the simple solution would be to consider the option to the authority of Ellen White.  People who want authority should not gain it by trying in any way to dilute or mute the authority of Ellen White.  In every case where they challenge ever so slightly the authority of Ellen White, you are to compare the issue with their own authority they have or are seeking for.  If you had to accept the authority of one or the other (our contemporary leaders pushing relentless change, using debate as a cover but never accepting no for an answer, compared to the authority of Ellen White), which would you choose for the church?

If you refuse their movements, they will not stop.  They will continue to claim we must accept what they are pushing, or that we must argue about the issues WHILE THEY ARE PUSHING THESE MOVEMENTS ANYWAY till we do accept what they are pushing.  Since they keep pushing these praise and worship services, are all the arguments against what they're doing over with? or should they keep making the changes WHILE WE'RE ARGUING, showing that the arguments are mere stunts leading to us having to accept what they're pushing anyway:  THEY ARE INTOLERANT, YET POSING AS TOLERANT, AND YET MORE, ACCUSING LOYAL ADVENTISTS OF BEING INTOLERANT FOR NOT ACCEPTING WHAT THEY'VE DECREED EVERYONE ELSE MUST ACCEPT.  They didn't inform us about the changes they decreed MUST COME before they have been pushing them for years already.  If Ellen White can't END any arguments, why couldn't they wait till arguments for whether or not to accept these things they're pushing ended BEFORE THEY PUSHED THEM?]

Since many (most?) Adventists are not well acquainted with Ellen White’s writings, my belief is that the “authoritative” Ellen White citation which ends the class discussion most likely reflects what the speaker thinks - and is unlikely to be an accurate quote from Ellen White, much less an accurate distillation of all of her writings on the subject. Those of you who know what I’m talking about, ask yourself the last time that you heard someone quote Ellen White and actually give the name of the book in which the statement was supposed to have appeared? (To say nothing about a citation to chapter or page numbers!)

The terrible tragedy that results is that God’s authoritative word, the Bible, is not seriously studied and debated. Instead, the opinion of some self-important person, parading as the view of Ellen White, ends the discussion. This is an outrage and nothing other than a disaster for understanding the Word of God.

The Solution:

There are a number of solutions to this problem. One solution is to simply avoid citing Ellen White - which is what the GoBible.org/SabbathSchoolLessons.com teaching outlines do for other reasons (as explained in the first paragraphs of this article). Another solution for Bible classes is to prohibit a citation to Ellen White unless the speaker can at least recite the book where the statement was supposedly found. (I have wondered if there should be a rule that the speaker citing Ellen White be required to bring the exact citation to Sabbath School the next Sabbath.)

The best solution, however, the solution that goes to the root of the problem, is a proper understanding of the relationship between the writings of Ellen White and the Bible. The 18th of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is this:

 

18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

 

A very important part of this belief is the statement that Ellen White “makes clear” that the Bible is the standard by which her teachings are to be tested. The Church’s first fundamental belief is this:

 

1. The Holy Scriptures: The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history.

 

The lesson to be drawn from these two statements of fundamental belief is that Ellen White is to be tested by the Bible, and not the other way around. Accepting this makes it totally inappropriate to end a discussion of the Bible based on what someone says (or knows) that Ellen White wrote.

How Authoritative is Ellen White?

You may have noticed that Fundamental Belief 18 refers to Ellen White as an “authoritative source of truth.” Just how authoritative is she? On that subject there is a great deal of debate among Seventh-day Adventists. One definition of “authoritative” is “highly reliable.” That is not the same as “always right.” Was the intent of Fundamental Belief 18 to convey the idea that Ellen White is not always right?

If two Bible students are debating what a text of the Bible means, if Ellen White sides with one of the debaters, is that the end of the matter? Does she “authoritatively” resolve all disputable Bible issues? I do not believe that position is consistent with the text of Fundamental Belief 18, the Bible or with the facts about Ellen White’s writings.

There are a number of facts about Ellen White’s writings which are acknowledged by the Church, but not well known by the general membership - at least not before the advent of the Internet. One reason for this is because some very irresponsible claims about Ellen White’s authority have been published by Adventist thought leaders over the years. For example, I have often read in Adventist literature that the test of Old Testament prophets, contained in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, should be applied to Ellen White because she passes that test. Here is what Deuteronomy 18:20-22 says:

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (NIV)

Do you see the logical flow of this text? God says that death is appropriate for any prophet who claims the authority of God for anything God has not commanded that prophet to say. How do we know when this has happened? The Bible says you have adequate proof for the death-penalty when what the prophet says does not come true or does not take place.

If this is the test that should be applied to Ellen White, this is a very harsh standard. Although Ellen White’s death almost a hundred years ago makes the “death penalty” issue moot, the “don’t be afraid” of that prophet remedy would still apply.

The question now is the same as then, how do we know if the messages written by Ellen White were “spoken by the Lord?” Should we use this harsh and terrible standard to judge her writings?

A particularly important aspect of this Old Testament prophet test is that it applies to the person, not individual messages. Once an Old Testament prophet even once fails the test, that person is never again to be considered to be a true prophet. (This, of course, would also be the practical result if the “prophet” were put to death!)

While Ellen White’s critics claim that she is a false prophet and never spoke the words of God, the reader may be surprised to find that material distributed by the official Ellen G. White Estate (“Estate”) admits that there are some serious problems.

A big issue among the critics of Ellen White is that she copied her writings from other sources. I do not think that anyone in the Church who is knowledgeable (and intellectually honest) on the topic, disputes the fact that Ellen White copied the writings of others.

About twenty years ago the Church commissioned a study on the extent to which Ellen White was “dependant” (a polite term for copying) on the writings of other authors. The commissioned study was done by Dr. Fred Veltman. His goal was to determine what percentage of the Desire of Ages, one of Ellen White’s most prominent books, was copied (dependant) to one degree or another from the writings of others.

The Veltman study is a little over 900 pages long. His conclusion was that 31% of the Desire of Ages "measured some degree of dependency" and 61% "registered independence." (p. 941. The rest represented the use of Scripture.)

The Veltman study is a very complex work. I have read only the 100 page “summary and conclusions.” Thus, I have done it an injustice by reciting its conclusions in one sentence. However, the Veltman study finds that a substantial percentage of the Desire of Ages came not from the mouth of God, but rather from the writings of other humans to one degree or another.

The Veltman study is available from the Church. It (or the 100 page summary) can be obtained from the Ellen G. White Estate (Ellen G. White Estate, Inc., Loma Linda Branch, Loma Linda University Library, Loma Linda, CA 92350) or on line at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists web site in the document archive section.

I have read that Dr. Fred Veltman should not be trusted because he had some liberal tendencies. As a lawyer, I consider that to be nonsense. One of the things I do for a living is to cross-examine experts. Bias is an important weapon of cross-examination. If the issue of Ellen White’s copying were put before a court, and Dr. Veltman were to testify on her behalf, I would have an easy time undercutting his testimony based on the fact that he is an Adventist, thus the study was done by an Adventist who believed in Ellen White as a prophet, and the work was “bought and paid for by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”

A study free from bias would have been done by a scholar who had nothing to do with Ellen White or the Church, and had no feelings about her one way or the other. If a Church commissioned study by a prominent Adventist scholar finds that 31% of the Desire of Ages is “dependant,” then according to the normal judicial standards of proof, that number is either exactly right or understated.

Not only is it clear that not all of Ellen White’s written words came from God, but, a reasonable reading of a publication of the Estate indicates that Ellen White does not pass the Deuteronomy 22 test. Recall that this test states in part: “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

The Ellen G. White Estate distributes a publication titled 101 Questions on the Sanctuary and on Ellen White (1981) which admits (p. 58) that EGW "misinterpreted" a vision about the "Shut Door." (She said God showed her the door of salvation was shut - and reproved in the name of God another "prophet" who said otherwise.)

The 101 Questions booklet was put together by Robert W. Olson, who was formerly in charge of the Estate. Bob Olson is a very smart and sincere Christian. He was and is a strong supporter of the Church and Ellen White. (I have had the wonderful opportunity to talk with Bob within the last few years about some of these issues.) He certainly is no critic of Ellen White. Yet, his 101 Questions booklet is quite candid.

In addition, you can find on the Internet Robert Olson’s The Shut Door Documents. This includes the statements of Ellen White about the “Shut Door.”

For those of you wondering why a prophet would care about doors being open or shut, let me explain. Ellen White was among a group of Christians (called “Millerites”) who believed the Bible-derived teaching of William Miller that Jesus’ Second Coming would be in 1844. Jesus did not come in 1844 or at anytime within the next 100 years. Undisputedly, William Miller was wrong.

At the time however, the disappointed group of believers decided that perhaps Jesus had just left heaven at the appointed day in 1844, and that He was making His journey to earth with the heavenly host. Since no one knows the distance between heaven and earth, and because Daniel 10:2-12 suggests that it might be a three-week journey for a single traveler who runs into problems (see, Daniel 10:12-13), it was reasonable to believe that God might have a little “travel time” in the Second Coming.

Do you remember Jesus’ parable of the Ten Virgins found in Matthew 25:1-13? It is a parable about Jesus’ Second Coming where He is compared to a bridegroom who is delayed coming to his wedding. The “midnight cry” (Matthew 25:6) goes out when the tardy bridegroom comes. The virgins who are waiting and prepared enter into the wedding feast with the bridegroom, while the unprepared virgins go to buy more oil for their lamps. After the prepared virgins enter into the building where the wedding banquet is being held, “the door was shut” (Matthew 25:10). The story goes on to indicate that the unprepared virgins were never able to enter through that shut door. Thus, Jesus warns believers who want to enter into eternal life that they should always be prepared for Jesus’ Second Coming.

The believers in the 1844 return date found this parable to be very important. At some time the door to salvation would “shut,” and all who were “outside” would be forever lost. Since they believed that Jesus was traveling from heaven to earth, they determined that during the “travel time,” it was unnecessary and even useless to try to convert others to Christianity because the time for salvation had passed. (See, Revelation 22:11). As in the parable of the ten virgins, the “door” to salvation had “shut.”

If all of these assumptions were correct, this makes perfect logical sense. The problem is that none of these assumptions were correct - as we now know beyond any doubt. Jesus had not left heaven for earth. Jesus and the heavenly host were not traveling to earth for the Second Coming. Therefore, the door to salvation could not be shut based on those assumptions.

If you read Bob Olson’s 101 Questions and his compilation of what Ellen White wrote in the Shut Door Documents, I believe the conclusion is inescapable that she wrote and spoke in support of the door being “shut.” She conveyed this as the word of God, and she was wrong. As I mentioned above, Bob Olson writes in his 101 Questions booklet (p. 58) that Ellen White declared the door was “shut” because she “misinterpreted” the vision. Whatever the source of the error, the bottom line is that she was wrong, and she presented the wrong information as coming from God. It is hard for me to imagine a court or jury would come to a different conclusion based on these documents written by Ellen White’s supporters, not her critics.

After reading through all of Bob Olson’s compiled documents on the Internet about what Ellen White wrote on the “shut door” through about 1849 (a five year period), I agree with him that what she meant by the term “shut door” changed over these years. However, if you carefully read the collected statements on the web site, Ellen White (at best) seems to be ultimately saying that those who rejected the 1844 message faced the “shut door.”

If I had been alive during those times, I believe that I would have accepted Miller’s argument about Jesus coming in 1844. Even now I think the Biblical evidence he argued is quite good. But, I would have been incontrovertibly wrong. Christians who lived during that time period and rejected William Miller’s message were incontrovertibly right. Jesus did not come then. If these Christians were right, and Ellen White (along with all of the other Millerites) was wrong, how can she be correct in saying that the door to salvation “shut” on those Christians who had it right? Simple logic bars me from that conclusion. This means that whatever the evolving definition over the five years of those who faced the “shut door,” Ellen White was wrong. If you believe that the Deuteronomy 22 test should apply to Ellen White, then Ellen White has a serious problem in the prophet department. Recall that this test states in part: “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

As I have written above, Robert Olson’s job was to promote Ellen White. He is no enemy of hers. He is just setting out what she has written. I invite you to read these documents to come up with your own conclusion as to whether Ellen White was wrong about the “shut door” and whether she was presenting this as God’s word.

If, after studying these documents, you reach the conclusion that Ellen White was in error in portraying God’s will, I see only two logical choices: Ellen White is either discarded as a prophet, or the Adventist writers who argued that the Deuteronomy 22 test should apply to her are wrong.

I think the writers are wrong.

Wayne Grudem has written a very interesting book entitled The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Crossway Books 1988) (“Gift of Prophecy”). Grudem’s book powerfully argues that there are substantial differences between “Old Testament” and “New Testament” prophets. The prediction in Joel 2:28-29 that the gift of prophecy will be widespread among believers in the last days is a description of “New Testament” prophets. Indeed, the following verses in Joel (Joel 2:30-31) describe events which Adventists have traditionally keyed to last day events.

The reader should study Grudem’s book to completely and properly understand his argument. Professor Grudem relies on texts like I Corinthians 14:29 (“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said”(NIV)) and 1 Thessalonians 5:19 22 (“Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.”(NIV)). He concludes in his book that these texts mean that statements of “New Testament” prophets are tested and weighed by the listener against the writings of the Bible. The good is to be sorted out and retained, the not-so-good discarded. (Gift of Prophecy, pp. 74-114)

If Grudem is correct in his distinction between “Old Testament” and “New Testament” prophets, then clearly the Old Testament prophet test of Deuteronomy 22 would not apply to Ellen White. In no way would it diminish her gift as a New Testament prophet to be wrong once, twice or, for that matter, be confused on one specific issue over a five year period. Copying the writings of others and passing them off as her own (or worse, as God’s), while not laudatory, is hardly fatal to the gift. New Testament prophets are not expected to be perfect, nor are they expected to be right all the time. What is expected of them is that they believe they are sharing God’s views.

What is expected of us is to “test” the views of “New Testament” prophets against Scripture. Consider 1 John 4:1-3:

 

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (NIV)

 

Did you catch this important point? The test for “New Testament” prophets is whether they acknowledge Jesus is God. Very clearly, Ellen White does that! 100% accuracy is no longer the test.

However Ellen White acquired the material she presented in the Desire of Ages, no intellectually honest Christian can doubt that she was inspired by the Holy Spirit in the final product. The Desire of Ages is a very strong affirmation of the Lordship of Jesus. Walter Martin, in his book The Kingdom of the Cults (Bethany House October 2003), states this about Ellen White:

 

After reading ... almost all of the writings of Ellen White, including her Testimonies, the writer believes White was truly a regenerate Christian woman who loved the Lord Jesus Christ and dedicated herself unstintingly to the task of bearing witness for Him as she felt led. Id. at 572.

 

Walter Martin has no bias in favor of Ellen White. Instead, his statement is simply an honest reaction to reading the writings of one who obviously “loved the Lord Jesus Christ and dedicated herself ... to bearing witness for Him.” That means she meets the 1 John 4:1-3 test for “New Testament” prophets.

Instead of the extreme position of the critics that Ellen White is a tool of Satan and she should be completely ignored, or the other extreme position that she is an inerrant “Old Testament” prophet, her gift as a New Testament prophet should be recognized for what it is and only for what it is.

This means her writings are to be tested by the Bible, the inerrant Word of God. Her writings are authoritative to the extent they are consistent with the Bible. This reasonable, Biblical, view of Ellen White brings us squarely back to the purpose of GoBible.org and SabbathSchoolLessons.com: to encourage the reading and discussion of God’s will as revealed in the Bible. Once the student has a proper understanding of the relationship between the authority of the Word of God and the authority of New Testament prophets, then Ellen White is a welcome addition (when properly cited) to studies and discussions intended to unravel the will of God.

One of the things I love about the Bible is that God does not “shade” the truth about His leaders. We are plainly told David is an adulterer, Abraham a liar, Moses a killer. None of the readers of this note can begin to fill the shoes of those great heroes of God. Those who would “shade” the truth about Ellen White to “protect” her should just stop. The truth is completely consistent with her office as a New Testament prophet. Fundamental Beliefs 1 & 18 can comfortably hold hands with both the unvarnished facts about Ellen White and the belief that she is one of God’s New Testament prophets.

Now that we have that resolved, let’s get back to our primary work: studying the Bible, God’s inerrant Word for His people!


 

 

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