ARGUMENTS WITH UNCHANGED MEMBERS OF THE PAPAL ARMY!!
Page Created 07/08/2001; Updated 09/12/2001
RCatholic here makes formidable arguments against the Adventist Church and arguments that support even the historical principles of the Catholic Church. Watch and see what he is capable of doing in these arguments and see if you can also see the solution to the propositions he raises. What he wrote is lengthy, so you may want to scroll down beyond to see the responses:
RCatholic
posted May 16, 2001 01:27
This story from scripture is an eye opener. Before you say, "This man blasphemeth" I beg you to read this story of Christ found in Matt.9:1-8. Before reading it though, I ask the Father, through our Lord Jesus Christ in union with the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Amen.
You may choose to leave your eyes opened or to shut your eyes that they may not see! It is up to you.
Matt.9:1 And he (Christ) entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. 2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. [This is the usual answer and immediate emotional response that comes from those who disbelieve that a man on earth can forgive sin]. 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? [indeed a prophet could heal but the power to forgive sins only comes from God!]
6 But that ye may know that the SON OF MAN HAS POWER ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) [note how it is said of Christ that he had power "ON EARTH" to forgive sin."] Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, WHICH HAD GIVEN SUCH POWER UNTO MEN!"
That is correct: M E N! Yes, it is in the manuscripts as MEN. Unlike the multitudes who "MARVELED AND GOLRIFIED GOD that such power had been given unto MEN", most continue to think as the scribes and say "THIS MAN BLASPHEMIES".
John writing his gospel 50 years or more after the ascending of Christ into heaven, recalls the how they were together on the 1st day of the week, when Christ revealed to the church that such power was given unto the Church in John 20: 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: AS MY FATHER HAS SENT ME EVEN SO I SEND YOU. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The Father had sent Christ ON EARTH with the power to forgive sin, hence Christ himself calls himself "the Son of Man". Meaning that he as MAN had the power to forgive sins. Likewise, he sends his Church, with the same power to forgive sins, NOT APART FROM CHRIST, but through Christ, with Christ!
Remarkably enough there is a story of healing, before this event in Matthew which has much bearing on the understanding. Matthew does not want it to be lost on those who read and understand that Christ gave such power unto men. So that we may know, Matthew gives us this story of a Gentile who would understand while the Jews did not. Matt. 8: 5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 FOR I AM A MAN UNDER AUTHORITY, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel"
What is incredible is how this relates to the church. A man under authority knows when one of the ambassadors of the King says it is done, it is done because he has the authority to make it so. So Christ, has made his Church to have the power to forgive sins, just as Christ had the power. How often would we have loved to hear the voice of Christ saying to us "Be of good cheer, thy sins are forgiven". All doubt would be removed! Man sometimes commits sins which we cannot forgive ourselves, even though we have the faith in Christ, what tears would we shed at the grace of Christ to hear his words!
Some will respond by saying, "I cannot confess my sins before a MAN! But I answer, if you cannot confess your sins before a sinful man, how will you confess before the Righteous Almighty God? But God has made them helpers of your joy. Just as those who in the gospel said, "I believe but help my unbelief". Christ has made his Church a helper of our unbelief.
Because it is in the heart of man to somehow associate God person with Parents or Ministers, spouses (you’ll notice I said "associate" I didn’t say they were God.,)When parents, friends, Ministers, spouses, Children or others are unforgiving, it does something to our soul. But what great joy it does when we offend someone even unintentionally when we HEAR the words, "I forgive you"! What warmth and love exudes out of our hearts to them who so graciously receives us after an offense! Now God has chosen his ministers as ambassadors as the beloved Paul writes in 2Cor.5:20 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God." See how the Apostle to the Gentiles says "WE PRAY YOU IN CHRIST STEAD to be reconciled to God." God wishes us to be as the centurion who unlike the unbelieving Jews, understood authority and believed.
In the Epistle of James, James commands those who are sick to "call upon the Elders of the Church". Why? Why do they not go to God directly instead to a MAN? Why does he say "Call upon the Elders of the Church" for those who are sick? I can hear all of the voices saying, "there is one mediator between God and Man!". Indeed there is one mediator between God and man and all healing and forgiveness of sin comes from God! But he has chosen his elders vessels of his mercy on earth. What then does the scripture say? "let him PRAY OVER HIM!" What? Is it not good enough for him to pray for himself that he may be healed"? Would God not hear his prayer and heal him? But James goes on and "anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
But notice how the chosen James speaks. First he says let them call upon the Elders of the Church, then he speaks let them "pray over him" and again "anoint him with oil". See how it is that the Elder anoints with oil the symbol of the Holy Spirit and then he speaks, "the prayer of faith shall save the sick." And again "The LORD shall raise him up!" But his Elders are the vessel by which he uses as he does the oil to anoint.
James then perceives the question, "what if he has sinned?" as Paul says in his epistle concerning those who "discerned not the LORD’s body" when they took the Eucharist were sick and many slept. So James says,
"16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that YOU MAY BE HEALED". See he has called upon the Elders of the church to anoint and pray over him, yet if there is sin, he should "confess his faults" one to the other THAT THEY MAY BE HEALED"! Just as Christ had power on earth to heal and to forgive sin, so he has given it to his church both to heal and to forgive sin, for Christ himself says, AS MY FATHER HAS SENT ME EVEN SO I SEND YOU. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." Let us be as the centurion and not as the scribes.
Beverly Taylor
posted May 19, 2001 02:45
This argument is false. To say that Christ has given the church power to forgive sins because the bible said that so the Lord sent Christ, so send us, cannot be true.
That scripture is meant for everyone who reads. If it was therefore true, I can read that scripture and have the power to forgive sins, and there would be no need for a priesthood.
There is nowhere indicated that Christians will have the same power that Christ had and are to do the same things that Christ did. We are not to accept worship. If a man comes and bows down to us, we are not to accept that. We are to immediately tell that man to get up and to inform him that we are flesh and blood.
It is the same way when Christ ascended to heaven. The scripture says that Christ will come again in like manner as people have seen him go. Is that totally true in every aspect? When Christ ascended there was no earthquake, no thunderous display. When Christ comes the second time, his feet will not even touch the earth.
That scripture given was just to show that as Christ taught, so the people are to teach and be missionaries. It doesn't prescribe that humans will be everything that Christ was.
So send Christ to the cross, so send all Christians to be attached to a tree?
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In His Grace,
Beverly Taylor
[Neither does it say that so Christ healed the sick, so we are to heal the sick (with miracles, and that the absence of miracles proves that we are not Christ's children). Neither does it say that Christ rose the dead, so are we also to raise the dead. In all these circumstances anyone can see that the similarity mentioned in God sending Christ and sending us is not in every aspect. Still, we have no biblical example of the confessional. The scripture tells us what we are to do if a man sins. It says,
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Nowhere there does it say that if a man sin, we have the priests at church.
This was partly the same issue on our web site with Rome. She claims that Christ has given her the keys of heaven and hell, and she can then change divine laws, interpret scripture, own all property, etc. We have shown Christ's statement Himself in Matt. 5:17-19 saying that till heaven and earth pass not a single jot or tittle of the law will fail or be removed, contrary to Rome's claim that she has changed the law from the authority given her in Christ WELL AFTER CHRIST MADE THAT STATEMENT SHOWING THE FUTURE. RCatholic evaded this question also. But likewise is there a misinterpretation when Christ says that whatsoever sins the church forgives are forgiven and whatsoever sins it retains are retained. This was supposed to mean that church which is submissive to the directions of the word, and not that one that thinks it bears mastery over the word to change it and to own all property and religion.
One way we can see a clear misinterpretation of this scripture is from Roman 12, where Paul says:
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Anyone having a clear knowledge of history knows that this here is a Protestant theme. Such was not the practice of Rome with her enemies throughout the ages. Yet when Paul spoke these words, he already had a perfect understanding that Christ gave the ability to bind and loose to His Church, and that He also gave the power to forgive and retain sins to His Church. The problem here is Rome's misinterpretation of this which has caused all her history of atrocities, and now her emotionalism over the alleged crimes of the other Christian denominations.
RCatholic
posted May 19, 2001 03:47
Beverly: If you wish to avoid the EXPLICIT statements of Christ, that is your perogative. It doesn't get any clearer than "Whosoever, sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven and Whosoever sins you retain, they are retain. Christ said, "whosoever, will not hear the church let him be as a heathen or a publican" Matt.18. It is the church that makes doctrine, not us individually. That is why you have 30,000 differing denominations.
Please note how smug I feel when I, a Christian, read these words of the natural powers I possess in Christ! It says to me whosoever sins I forgive or retain, they are forgiven or retained! But this is against what RCatholic is trying to tell us, so he will have to fine-tune this to his preference and tell us how we take things too literally or misinterpret the scriptures. This promise, according to him, is not directed to those who read and who have accepted Christ. It has to be directed to a priesthood.
Just below is that fine-tuning. The reason he gave is by far not the real reason why there are thousands of differing denominations. We remember well even the struggle in the Adventist Church by leaders having a Catholic bent who, in attacking our sure doctrines, first demanded that we differ in opinions.
RCatholic
posted May 19, 2001 12:50
Beverly: One thing I should point out. In neither place of the scripture does it say that the power to forgive sin was given to "all" men. It was not. It was given to the Apostles and they were MEN. Somehow, you mistakenly appear to think it meant "ALL" men. Christ when he appeared to the disciples, "blew on them and said "receive you the HOLY SPIRIT." then he said, "WHOSOVER SINS YOU FORGIVE THEY ARE FORGIVEN".
The "tradition of MEN" says that Christ didn't give them the power when the EXPLICIT scripture say HE DID.
So then Christ gave such power EXPLICITLY to the Apostles or to those involved in Pentecost. If it had anything to do with the power of binding and loosing Christ gave to His church, but which power does not allow them the power to change God's law, we can understand how to properly interpret these scriptures so that religions cannot ascribe to themselves power Christ Himself never claimed while He was on earth. Again, is the question answered why Paul told us "it is written" not to avenge ourselves but that vengeance is the Lord's? The power to claim or own property or to even control the leaders of government was something Christ NEVER claimed on earth though He had every right. Also the scriptures tell us to love not the world nor the things in it, for such love demonstrates that the love of the Father is not in us. Christ went before Herod and other great men of His time and showed such a completely different attitude to ambition, glory, and power that Rome has consistently shown throughout the ages.
Talbot Simpson
posted May 19, 2001 13:55
Sir,
In all due respect, you first quoted to all that the scripture where it says that God sent Christ and so does He send us means that Christians must take upon themselves the prerogative to forgive sins. Beverly comes in and shows that you placed too much into the meaning of that scripture.
Now you say that when Beverly claims that she, reading that statement from that scripture, can forgive sins, that she is reading more into it than she should. I think the problem came with the first super-reading.
When the Pharisees said who can forgive sins but God only, Jesus did not object to the actual statement, for it was true. We can find no scriptural reference for the confessional in anywhere near Catholic practice today. Even then for men to bow before another man in worship was always forbidden from beginning to end in scripture, but it can be done for the Pope today.
Even the scripture where Christ says whatsoever shall be bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and also the other way around, was not to convey that earth controls heaven. That scripture was done with the assumption that the church will be humbling herself to the written word. Then all her judgments will be on the mark.
I read somewhere before an argument where someone pointed out that Christ said that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law till all be fulfilled. The post then commented on the Catholic church's claim that because of the new powers Christ gave her, she can change the law. This fell on a difficult backdrop to Christ's ability to see and predict the future. It is odd for Christ to give all power to a church after he said that the law will stand just as written till the end, for the church to then expound upon one scripture and tell the world she has the power to change it all.
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Talbot Simpson
This last statement of Talbot is a question that has not been answered by any of the Catholics on any of the forums since it was asked!
RCatholic
posted May 19, 2001 17:10
Talbot:
If you think bowing is a form of worship, then you will have to condemn Jacob because he said of Judah. There are NONE who worship the Pope. And never has any Pope accepted "worship" of men. But because men show respect and reverence to those Christ himself has made visible head of the Church, it is called "worship" by tone of he most rebellious ages in the history of man. Bowing before a ruler on earth has always existed. Because someone bows reverence that does mean he worships him? See how Jacob prophesied concerning Judah, wherefore he says, "8Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall BOW DOWN BEFORE THEE." Does Jacob mean to "worship" Judah or to serve him? On such simple things some do greatly error and "bring forward a false accusation" against the fellow believers in Christ (gravely breaking the 9th Commandment), while they boast in the Sabbath day.
I think you have it rather backwards, THE SCRIPTURE CAME FROM THE CHURCH, NOT THE CHRUCH FROM THE SCRIPTURE. That is why Christ made the Church, not scripture the final authority.
Please remember what we had shown on the following here. It is not true that the scripture came from the church and not the church from the scripture. Scripture came from God THROUGH THE PROPHETS. Throughout history the worst opposers of the prophets were the organized body raised up by God. Who were Jeremiah's worst opposers? Who were Micaiah's? Who were Elijah's? All who read the writings of these prophets and accepted them ran into collision with the visible church.
This was demonstrated in Christ's day for all who can see who were Christ's worst opposers. From then to now it was those who individually studied the words of the prophets and accepted them and lived by them who wound up being saved from terrible calamity and were accurate in all that they did. These few and singular individuals then evolved into being the actual church. Then, as history attests, as that body that came from those singular individuals got more numerous and powerful, it was overcome by evil and ambitious men who were entrusted with its care. Here they are now telling us that the Church made the scriptures and not the other way around!
Learn a lesson from the Presidential election. Let me here speak by human analogy. The recent election of the President is a great example. In the election we had a written document (in a small way like the bible because it contains written perscibed ways of living). Now the Democrats and the Republican. Oh how the Democrates did fight for "THEIR INTERPRETATION:, and OH HOW THE REPUBLICANS DID FIGHT FOR "THEIR INTERPRETATION" OF THE FLORIDA CONSTITUTION. But how was the matter settled? Except it went to the supreme court, it would still be argued today. But Man understands that their must be a "final authority" to settle disputes. And Christ knew also that many disputes would arise from man. So Christ made his church, the final authority while not diminishing the word. Just as the Constitution of the United States was the written law, the Supreme Court had to make the final decision over the controversy of the written document. And that is precisely why Christ said, "If a man will not hear THE CHURCH let him be as a heathen or publican". That is why Paul wrote to the Timothy, "...the Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth".(1Tim.3:15) And this takes nothing away from scripture because all scripture is given through the inspiration of God, 2Tim.3:16. But is was the Church which determined even what was scripture and what was not! And that Church was the Catholic Church. The Keys of the Kingdom of heaven were given unto Peter.
What is being shown here is that Rome has not changed. As he pleads for the final authority for his church, he ventures on ground that was long forbidden for him to take by our liberty-loving forefathers. He is speaking for CONTROL. We do know that the Pope is apologizing for the sins of the past he claims. Should he be forgiven? When we understand that putting the Papacy back in the reigns of power is an issue involving life and death, and that consistently when he was powerful there were mass exterminations, we look to see if any of his attributes have changed. If they have not, what we are to do is what the history of this nation has done: we tell him NO! We cannot accept his repentance, for it is FALSE! Especially since the beginning when this country was first established, anyone would understand that if there were true repentance, the offender would not be delving into his former activities. Here we see a call again for power for the Pope. An issue is being raised that the other Protestant Churches are not taking. The Protestant Churches have missionaries. The Vatican has missionaries, but also secret orders that commit assassinations, and delve into every form of politics and subversion.
From this comes the question consistently of what or who is the church. You can never convince rabid Catholics that they are not members of the one and only true church. From what we see it is obvious that Catholics can convince the other churches that none of them ARE the true church. The reason then why strange people on all the forums become emotional because the Adventist Church claims to be the true church, but they will not even touch their fellow Catholics is obvious from just who they are! But Christ established a means for detecting where the true church is.
The Jews flaunted in Christ's face how they were the Children of Abraham. This appeared to be all that mattered to them. When comparing the rich heritage of the Jews in comparison to Rome, Rome pales! The Children of Israel were around a great deal longer than the Vatican. Catholics like to show how the other denominations were around for only a hundred or so years, and they love to show how this is proof that they are the true church. But the Children of Israel were the true church BY BLOOD! Christ Himself was a Jew! Popes are not chosen by the same family tree or by blood. Catholics love to show how the Popes descended down from Peter, but this descension they have to admit was not by blood or offspring becoming heir to the throne of the church. Popes are chosen by appointment. This was different with the Jews. They were appointed by blood, lineage and tribal membership.
The history of the Jews is wrought by far more and far greater miracles and visible acknowledgement of the power of God that can ever compare with Rome. It started when she was delivered out of Egypt, to wars being won spectacularly! This was quite different from the Vatican signing of the Concordat with Hitler and Mussolini. It was to the point where the Lord stopped the sun from moving in the sky for Joshua, and even made it move in the opposite direction for Hezekiah! Nothing remotely touching these stupendous feats ever happened to or for Rome.
So what happened? The Pharisees flaunted in Christ's face that they were God's true people because they were the Children of Abraham. What did Christ tell them? He told them:
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
As you can see, the works of the church are the indicator or identifier for the church.
The practice of confession of sin is found in James 5:14-18. When they are to call upon the elders of the church. While the practice of the Christian Church in the 1st century was to do it in public in front of the Church, the church for the sake of the perishioners allowed private confession. James makes that abundantly clear in his epistle. You may not like it but it is true and the church has always followed the tradition of the Apostles.
This is a lie. The scripture asks if any is sick among the CHURCH MEMBERS. It then says if that is so, let THEM (the church members) call the elders so that they may pray over the sick and he would be healed, but then that scripture says:
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Here we see that it is not talking to the elders of the church, but it is talking to the general members. If it were talking to the elders of the church, that would mean that the elders of the church would have to confess their sins one to another, and then the members also will have those powers of confession.
My "Noahide Laws" forum covers why the Gentiles were not bound to keep the Sabbath. Please feel free to visit that forum and remark. Please bring your bible and look up the verses.
Because many of the other things which Christ both said and did were not written down, (John 21:24), the gospel was given ORALLY to the Church, not a single New Testament verse was written UNTIL AFTER 20 YEARS AFTER THE ASCENSION OF CHRIST! Therefore Paul wrote in 2Thess.2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the TRADITIONS which ye have been taught, WHETHER BY WORD, or our epistle."
The belief of the approaching "scripture alone" in leaving it up to "individual interpretation" is condemned in the scriptures as Peter writes 2 Peter1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. The whole doctrine of "scirpture alone" is a "tradition of men". Acts 15 is a beautiful example of how the Sect of the Pharisees with scripture believed a false belief and the Apostles and Elders refuted their belief and sent a decree to all the churches after making a decision. Just as the church does the same today.
That scripture given by RCatholic was misinterpreted. The meaning was not to demonstrate that it is wrong to individually study the scriptures and then come to a conclusion out of conscience. It was saying that no prophecy of scripture is of any SELFISH interpretation. There is enough evidence to show that Christ intended fully that all men are to study the scripture for themselves and come to their own conclusions. They are however not to forsake the assembling of themselves together where they can test and sharpen their scriptural skills. In debate or demonstration will it be shown whether or not someone interprets correctly. That is why Rome, throughout history, specialized in condemning and exterminating true Christians WITH THE PRETEXT THAT THEY NOT BE ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. Their skill with the scriptures must not be seen by others, for that would demonstrate their lack of skill therewith.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Here it does not say that we are to search the priests. It does not tell us here to search the Church. It tells us to search the scriptures. History confirms this again since the prophets and the Word of God long suffered from organizations that God Himself had established. Odd it is for Christ to give any such an organization absolute power after He Himself suffered so much, like the prophets, at the hands of organizations!
A man asked Christ what he must do to be saved. Christ's reply was:
Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Here Christ is acknowledging that it is possible to read what the scriptures say and to misinterpret. But yet He gives no indication that people are to search the priests. Christ created a church at liberty. Such a church will consist of members who can know all the mysteries and can impose checks and test the knowledge of all others who may claim to have rights they should not have, especially over money, power and property. Christ gave INDIVIDUALS the power to interpret. To find out if he has not interpreted correctly one must TEST his ideas and even see his fruits. The entire world saw Rome's fruits for hundreds of years. When her reign was restrained then knowledge and prosperity blossomed.
Talbot Simpson
posted May 19, 2001 17:59
Sir,
If you can prove to me that the Catholic Church is the final authority that has benefited the world I would be convinced.
I just had to add that I recently saw a very interesting article on Brother Ted's website that deals with this issue of a final authority being imposed to solve controversial issues. It is a set of say five articles that can be found here:
http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/AC/DiversityI.html
But back to what I was talking about when I talk about incidents, what comes to my mind are many incidents where she has decided and the decision was very tragic and defeating. She told France to get rid of Protestantism for if Protestantism is allowed to remain it will result in the destruction of the sceptor and the pulpit together in anarchy.
France did exactly as Rome has said and annihilated or driven out all the Protestants. When they did that, THEN the scepter and the pulpit fell in anarchy!
All throughout history the word and experience showed that the bureaucracy was not what was to be followed. For ages those who had been called God's people under an organization made warfare against the prophets. All who read and studied the writings of the prophets were safe from destruction.
The thing to do is to demonstrate from the scriptures what is true and not, and bring it here to forums and answer questions in honesty and the truth would come out. But frankly, when the world made a separation from that church you talk about, she moved into more and more prosperity.
You may point to many of the problems in existence today since the departure, but I can see with all the problems a departure from the principles that were known, understood and implemented that made a nation called America great. It grew and grew and grew, getting better and better. It was not for the purpose of helping it grow that many Catholics saw the need to come over here. It was not the wisdom of the Catholic Church that created the freedoms that had been most of the history of great America. Even now she only pretends to go along with it.
She can show her power to solve disputes by fashioning Catholic countries according to her model so that we all can see, but she knows better than doing that, for she knows it will never match the prosperity nor order of the Protestant nations.
Also, I know the difference between bowing and worshipping. Cornelius bowed before Peter and Peter stopped him. Many in the Orient regularly bow for greetings, but all can see that no worship is involved.
You have said that James 5:14-18 shows the process of the confessional. I read that verse and it merely says to confess our faults one to another. Please post that scripture and break it down for us to show us how you propose that it will support your claim.
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Talbot Simpson
[This message has been edited by Talbot Simpson (edited May 19, 2001).]
RCatholic
posted May 19, 2001 18:41
Talbot: If you look at the scripture regarding Cornelius, you will see that is say he bowed to "worship" him. Bowing before kings and rulers has been done from time in memorial without any "worship". It is always good to remember the scripture which Christ says, John 7: "24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.: Some peoples hearts are trained to jump at the first opportunity to make an "accusation" against other Christians. I am not speaking to you, because I sincerely believe you were doing no such thing.
The Church has always been the final authority, that is a fact from history. Read Church history as well. I know people love to focus on the Tares rather than the wheat but that is much like accusing Christ because of Judas. We could a make Christ and his gang look pretty bad if we want to Judas.
I find it a little incredulous that people can't find a single thing that the Catholic Church has done to make the world better. Well lets, see. There are 2.5 billion Christians in the world that every year sing both about the New born King, Christ with us, Christ the Saviour is born, that recognize the Christ as "God in the Flesh". That also recognize he was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, Crucified, died and was buried, raised on the 3rd day and will come again to judge the living and the dead.
The Catholic Church preserved, copied and canonized the Scriptures. Of which the Protestants removed books. The Catholic Church has preserved the teaching of the Apostles from the 1st century til this day. Utilizing the same worship as in the 1st century to day. Even the very same words in worship.
Recently, on a plane I spoke with a Vietnam refugee, he spoke of the 25% of Vietnam which converted to Christianity from Budaism as a direct result of the Catholic Monks and Nuns. Only lately has the Prostestants come in to that area while the Catholics paved the road. The Protestants came along after the Catholic church was here 1500 years. How easy it made it for them. The first 300 years of the Church is full of the blood of the Martyrs who would not give up the faith for the Roman gods, and idols. They were fighting for the faith of the church not fighting against the church.
I could go on for hours but that is not a bad start. If you think "success and money" is the measure of a church, there is plenty of those around. The prosperity message is rampant these days.
If you are open minded enough to study the impact of Christianity beyond the negative before the Protestant reformation in light of the billions of heathens which were converted to the true God and away from false gods, you would see that the positive impact has been beyond words in the positive side. Unfortunately, there are those who only want to focus on the negative. This Pope's impact on Russia, Poland and the other parts of the world have been extremely positive, alone. A study of early church writings would do all well. You can start at www.ccel.org and then go to the "EARLY CHURCH FATHERS" TAB.
There is far more of the positive to be seen in the Adventist Church, for she is not even guilty of the shedding of one unit of blood. RCatholic has already trashed the Adventist Church as he now tells us to look to the positive side for his benefit, as he again moves to capture power for Rome.
RCatholic
posted May 19, 2001 18:55
Since Rcatholic has told us to look at the "positive side" of Rome, check and see what he now has to do to those bands of heretics the Pope is apologizing to because of an unparalleled history. In case you did not already notice on this web site, the strange people posting on and owning all the "Adventist" forums around have this same talent to preach to us how we must act and think and then break that teaching in the next breath:
BTW: I forgot to mention that the church has, despite all of the persecution from the cults and Protestants alike, held on the truth as to the teachings of the immortality of the soul, purgatory, heaven and Hell, Justifcation and Mary which all of the protestants in one fashion or another have utterly failed to preserve. Not to mention the UNITY OF THE FAITH" BY WHICH ALL MEN WOULD KNOW CHRIST WAS SENT FROM GOD AND LOVES US.
Talbot Simpson
posted May 19, 2001 23:43
You are speaking falsely.
Persecution was not the forte of the Protestants. It was the forte of Rome. I can even gather doctrinal and written statements where Rome claims the right to persecute. If you can find some from the Protestant faiths, please let me know.
But it is like Rome to claim that Protestants persecuted her so much that she must have founded America as the land of liberty away from persecution. From what I am viewing here, Rome has not changed a bit!
Maybe you can even help us out and answer for why so many posting on these Adventist forums get all emotional at the fact that the Adventist Church says she is the true church, but when we bring up the fact that Rome also has taught that to the shedding of innumerable blood, they are calm about the issue, quiet--they even cover over the question with idle talk, jesting, arrogance and accusations. Maybe you can answer for us where so many "Protestants" are telling us that we must unite with Rome after telling us that we can disagree and have already arranged our systems for that uniting whether we like it or not. It must be your policy also that the Gospel is a forced proposition and that Christ forces Himself with His Gospel on the people.
If it can be said that some concentrate too much on the negative when commentary is made about Rome, how can that justify the posts attacking Ellen White on all the forums by the same people who dare not say anything against Rome, and no one can even compare the actions that warrants such responses?
What about the fact that a special message was revealed to Daniel and John the Revelator, but Rome doesn't appear to have received that message. Everyone who tells us we must unite with her do what they can to make us stop studying that information that bypassed Rome and that she seeks to destroy. The just conclusion is that the Revelation talks about Rome as the Beast 666. Daniel talks about a special message that was sealed until the end of time for God's people. Adventists study out and proclaim that message. What does Rome do?
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Talbot Simpson
[This message has been edited by Talbot Simpson (edited May 19, 2001).]
RCatholic
posted May 20, 2001 00:43
Now since Rcatholic spoke about looking at the positive. Watch what he does with the Adventist Church here:
Talbot: Hmm. Let me see, Perhaps you could answer which churches call the Catholics, "Whore of Babylon" and "Synagogue of Satan".
RCatholic is willfully dishonest here. None of the Protestant Churches call CATHOLICS those names. Some of them call the VATICAN those names. If the Protestant Churches called individual Catholics those names, you can be sure that there would hardly be any converts from Catholicism to Protestantism. The facts show that there are many such converts even to the Adventist Church in DROVES!
Perhaps you could tell me how many Catholic families have been divided by Sabbath Keeping Churches or how many Protestants have divided Catholic Families. Perhaps you could tell me about the Calvins, Inquistions. Perhaps you could tell me who the Sabbath Keepers say have the "Mark of the Beast". Read any literature from any of the Sabbath Keeping Churches and see who it is they hate! Perhaps you could stop and think about all the "bearing of a false witness" by all the false accusations from the Protestant Churches, mostly and including the Sabbath Keeping Churches. They don't even bother to "try" to see if it is correct.
The Catholic Church is not without its own fault because Christ did say the tares would grow up with the wheat. But, lets not PRETEND that your churches are not without fault either. Let's face correctly.
RCatholic is being deceitful here also. On the link above are shown statements where the Vatican shows it is against liberty. Those statements have NEVER been abrogated and they were done by the official church itself and not TARES in the Vatican as RCatholic is here trying to deceive us with. If even he wants to tell us that the tares in the Catholic Church did that, how come he trashed the Adventist Church and talked about crimes "Sabbathkeepers" have done without even thinking that those crimes were just done by the tares in the Adventist Church?
When the issue of their persecution is brought up, they like to say that they didn't commit the persecution, but that the state or countries where they were put the Protestants to death. All this is just the continued and unchanging lies. Who would apologize for the actions of the state? And who would see such actions in the millions and would not speak out against the state? Almost 2,000 years passed by with Rome dominating, and they are trying to tell us that the state did these things against their protests for so long?
The Catholic Church has made great strides in the last years to make peace with all people without compromising doctrine. The Sabbath Keeping Churches have done there best to be as hostile as they can toward ALL CHRISTIANS THAT DON'T KEEP THE SABBATH! Just like the Jews did to the Apostles, Christians and Christ, himself.
It is true that the Catholic Church has made great strides in recent years to make peace with all people. However, the Catholic Church has made great strides throughout the centuries on a number of occasions just like today. And what was the result of this?
One such example is the Massacre of St. Bartholomew where she cuddled up to the Protestants saying how she has changed and wanted healing. At midnight all the houses of the Protestants were opened at once and they were all slain without mercy. Neither age nor sex were spared. There must be some reason even now why professing X-Adventists are telling us that they found out the truth about Ellen White, that the Adventist Church is legalistic and is cultic for claiming to be the true church, but they keep silent about Rome. They now claim to be ecumenical, but they do not show us what the prophecies have done to them to make them reject it for papal doctrine.
Just recently when the Pope apologized for all the sins of the Catholics everywhere for all time, instead of admiration for his humility, I have heard nothing but GROSS DISTORTION from the Sabbath Keeping Churches. I mean VILE comments. They DISTORT OUR BELIEFS, THEY DISTORT OUR FAITH. And it is all done in a extremely malicious manner. While the brag about "keeping the 10 commandments", as if they never read the 9th commandment! As James says, if you offend in one point of the law and keep the WHOLE LAW, you are guilty of ALL.
It is again odd that the Catholic Church has apologized for her sins, while strange folks are around telling the world that the criminals during the Dark Ages, and even during Hitler's time were the Protestants. I have tried unsuccessfully to make Stephen Korsman and other abandoned army members of the Papacy to answer why this is so. So while the Pope is apologizing everywhere, why do people not copy the postings of these people from the internet and show the world how something is nuts here?
We forgive you everytime we read one of those disgusting pieces of filth literature (if you can call it literature), while you all do nothing but sow discord among our brethren, speak a lies against our church and its doctrines, devise wicked imaginations about worshiping idols and calling us "worship" of Mary, making her "deity", "worship of the Pope". All of that dung. It's nothing but vemoneous, hatred. Your churches don't make the SLIGHTEST EFFORT TO EVEN REMOTELY UNDERSTAND OUR DOCTRINES BEFORE THE MOUTH STARTS SPEAKING LIES.
Did we even forgive RCatholic for the lies he already said in this post? Remember, we did not shed their blood. Our church is not guilty of this.
So jump off the "holier than thou" stuff and come down to reality.
But the Adventist Church is not "holier than thou" to the point of saying that because she is the true church, all who disagree are heretics and should be killed. That has never happened. Therefore who is Christ's church? Is it these who are so corrupt in judgment and who would do ANYTHING to accomplish their purposes and regain power again? It is not just an issue of peace. All would be peace if they left things alone, leave us, stop advancing to push the Pope to power and take all their infiltrants away from our government, churches, media and education system who are telling us how confusion is such a blessing in diversity so that we now need their Pope to settle disputes among us!
To disagree is one thing. To utterly and intentionally distrort what the Catholic Church teaches is down right wicked. That is the same reason why Isaiah said to the Sabbath keepers, "Your Sabbaths and your feasts my soul hates"!
As you read these words, take a look at the Jack Chick web site where he shows what and who were the creators of the Nazi Regime that was partially created to deal with "Sabbath Keepers!" Again, Jesus was a Sabbath Keeper!
Let us all admit we are sinners and as Christ said to pray, "forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US! Think about it next time you get ready to talk about how EVIL those other churches are and grossly exaggerate the sins of 500 to 1000 years ago.
But RCatholic forgot just a few minutes to the bringing up of some real terrible stuff about the Adventist Church. Other Catholics even ridicule the Adventist Church by saying that it is not even 200 years old yet and therefore must not be the true church, but we are compared to the Pharisees who existed so much earlier! What was the example of forgiveness shown here?
Because Christ said except you forgive FROM THE HEART, YOU SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN. It is up to you. Lord knows, we all are in need of his forgiveness! If you die in a state of hatred for your fellow believers in Christ you shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. We pray for the peace among the churches and we ask you to join us. Isn't it about time we try to understand each other rather than promote hate?
I am not trying to convert one of you. I am only asking that you consider the truth of what we preach and rather than the "fabrications" of those who hate us. If you disagree, fine.
Notice that RCatholic tells us that we must promote peace among the churches and says that he asks us to join them? You need to see another abandoned Catholic by the name of Pat Darnell, who told us that WE WILL HAVE TO unite with Rome. Rome ASKING for us to forgive and unite IS NOTHING NEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY. We say that if Rome has repented for her UNPARALLELED crimes worse than all the cults of this century COMBINED and EVEN TO AN EXPONENTIAL DEGREE, she would not be AGAIN ASKING us to unite with her FOR ANYTHING!! Even the turmoil being caused in the Adventist Church today with the new theology infiltrants and those who even fashioned "worship styles" for us demonstrated clearly to us that we are more than being asked to join the other churches under Rome, but WE ARE BEING FORCED INTO IT!
Forgiveness does not mean to forget the principles of the Constitution to permit a power having THE SAME DOCTRINES THAT MADE HER A PERSECUTING POWER to again seduce the people with "Love," "healing," and then tyranny and persecution. If she gives God's people the slightest indication that she holds the same doctrines that made her commit the atrocities she has, common scripture sense tells you that you cannot allow her the same privileges. That is why to this day wise Protestants still refuse to unite with Rome. This is not because they are not forgiving. This is because God has given them sense, a love of liberty and a love of the scriptures which were outlawed for hundreds of years under Rome's rule. She will naturally say that this and everything we say is a lie. Study why America was formed. It is a nation tangible right before your eyes to be compared to the rangling of historic despots.
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