JESUIT DIALOGUES !!

Updated 11/15/2003: made easy to print out

(A Jesuit who formerly argued us down to frustration against the Ten Commandments posts in her shock that Adventists would refuse to encourage moral legislation in the enforcing of the Ten Commandments upon the United States.

This work first starts with a candid observer posting in information he found describing efforts being made to publish the Ten Commandments in government and public places.)

Color Legend:

From: "Jack Norris Jr."

Here is an article on recent Congressional efforts to have the Decalogue posted in public schools that says it all pretty succinctly. I think it would "generally express" a view that is very much aligned with our "Official" SDA thinking. Hopefully the link at the end picks up the article in all its force. I am not sure where Rev. Henderson would fall in the Liberal\Conservative spectrum of his denomination (Presbyterian), but he makes two points near the end regarding the Sabbath and regarding the inclusion of more than just the 10 commandments in public education that were surprising to me--pleasingly surprising. However you feel about his article, this whole issue fits well with Rev 13.

Jack Norris

Subject: ABOUT TODAY - God in the Classroom; Tarzan Swings; More Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:28:33 -0400 From: Jake Levich <news@ABOUT.COM> To: ABOUTTODAY@MCLIST.ABOUT.COM

ABOUT TODAY 23 June 1999

THOU SHALT NOT LEGISLATE GOD

Scrambling to address public outrage over the Columbine killings, Congress hastily passed a law requiring display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. Rev. Charles Henderson, our Christianity Guide, thinks legislators should take a closer look at what the Bible actually says.

http://christianity.about.com/library/weekly/aa062299.htm

Pamella, here:
I am speaking as the daughter and the sister of SDA ministers. It has always concerned me that my SDA family always interpret current events in terms of the SDA schema of end-time events only. Let me clarify. I have SDA friends that voted for Clinton simply because the Republican candidates were in favor of prayer in public schools. My question is, "How much evil are SDAs willing to tolerate in order to avoid at all costs any legislation involving fundamental moral rights?"

[As you can see here, this Jesuit is defending the idea that the 10 Commandments be publicly displayed everywhere. Is there something wrong with this? Yes there is. This person has been consistently annoying us to frustration in doing everything possible to make everyone believe that the Ten Commandments were done away with at the cross and that to regard them is defined as "legalism." She told us it is dangerous in the Christian life to even regard these principles. She also has declared that she was a former Adventist and that she was also tortured beyond end by the "legalism" of Adventism in its regard for the Ten Commandments.

Do you therefore see a problem here? Let's read on so that we can see what happens:]

In Clinton we have, undoubtedly, the most amoral President in our history, one who misuses the very words of the Bible (Remember how he spoke of a New Covenant at his inauguration?), yet this is what many SDAs preferred because they are terrified of some crossover between church and state. Let me tell you, folks, the separation of church and state IS NOT mandated in the Bible. In fact, the Israelites were a theocracy; their church and state were one. The separation of church and state is an American political brainchild. So why all the fuss about keeping church and state separate? Do you prefer the amoral, hedonistic society that the flower children of the sixties have produced?

[Here we see another consistent characteristics of Jesuits: they all hate the principle of Separation of Church and State. It just so happens that these posting on the forums and attacking Adventism mysteriously have the same sentiments to add to the long list which identifies them. All this they claim was acquired when they finally realized that Ellen White was a phony. From since that time, they claim that a peace fell upon them that passed all imagination and that they are just praising God for their release. By their beliefs consistently demonstrated, you can see that they actually were never really Adventists.]

Do you prefer our children killing children in the public schools? Do you prefer rampant teenage pregnancy and spread of HIV? Come on, and get real. It is about time that the moral condition of this country was addressed.

SDAs come off sounding Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, or even Wiccan (which has been given official sanction as a religion) in militantly protesting the addition of Christian morals and values to our society. While other Christian organizations are pushing for legislation that allows prayer in public schools and the 10 commandments in the courtroom, SDAs team up against such laws with the atheists! Unbelievable!

Why should SDAs care if students are allowed to pray in public schools, anyway? Their kids aren't supposed to be there! Why should they care if the 10 commandments are displayed in schools or in courtrooms? Surely, no SDA, except those employed in the legal business, is being constantly dragged to court! Is there not a BETTER issue that SDAs could rally behind? Like abortion? SDAs are ominously silent on this one. And what about gun control? Surely the SDAs could make a stand on this issue. But no. They focus all their energies into fighting those who would allow children to read the 10 commandments and to pray in school. To me, this is utter nonsense. SDAs need to take their heads out of 19th century mentality and wake up and live in the present. There are many evils plaguing this nation, and you will not convince me for a moment that children praying or reading the commandments in the public schools is one of the worst.

My opinion only.

In His grace,

Pamella Sikes

[Question: Is there another problem with this that you can find? Well you probably would not know until we tell you, but this person has been posting on the forums that the Ten Commandments are inseparably connected with all of the laws of the Jews. She attacked Adventism relentlessly for daring to separate the Ten Commandments from the Ritual Ceremonial law of Moses and the civil codes and heath laws of the Jews. When we revealed her lack of conscience, she did the usual complaining that we hate her just because she disagrees with us. She still continues to push the idea that people can see things differently before she tells everyone what is what.

She is here now demanding that the Ten Commandments be enforced upon all--even atheists! When once she told us it was a dangerous code to even consider for the Christian (for it robs one of Christ) she now tells us that the government should force it upon all. She says nothing at all about the rituals of washings, of killing lambs, of owning slaves and meteing out punishment that she had claimed must always be included with the Ten Commandments.

What did she do once she was caught meteing out this clear mass deception? She did like all the rest in pretending that nothing was found, and the rest of the Jesuits on that forum joined in to help her and comment about how it is a totally different thing to avoid the Ten Commandments, lest Christians become legalistic, yet it is a necessity to enforce upon all the people. They didn't care what they said or did in order to press their points.

Listen to her as this conversation continues. We have comments at the end:]

Pamella Sikes here:
Let me tell you, folks, the separation of church and state IS NOT mandated in the Bible. In fact, the Israelites were a theocracy; their church and state were one. The separation of church and state is an American political brainchild.

"Mandated" is possibly too strong a word for the way that Scripture handles this issue.

The truth of the matter is that the Scriptures is silent on this issue. The examples you gave are a matter of interpretation. SDAs obsession with this has to do with their paranoia over Sunday law legislation. I still find it ludicrous that SDAs are willing to join forces with atheists and the ACLU over things like this. Do you not consider that to be strange bedfellows? Let individuals approach political issues in his or her own way, but I find it bizarre that a self-avowed Christian denomination would stand proudly with those who deny God's existence over such things. If it were not for the fear of Sunday-law legislation, SDAs would side with their own kinsmen. But because of this single issue, which by the way is not provable scripturally, they stand with those who deny our Lord and God.

J. Norris wrote:
Jesus said, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mt 22:21). There is a church/state separation inferred here, as is also the case in Romans 13. Every case of church/state union has produced persecution of those who do not conform to that particular brand of legislated morality. Morality cannot be legislated effectively. It is a fruitless effort, because, while there is outward conformity, on pain of incarceration, or even capitol punishment, immorality flourishes, even among the clergy. God Himself is the only one who can deal with it. The State and church can only deal with it from a behavioral standpoint. And then their penalties are unjustly applied, often based on assumption and/or false testimony.

Now I am speaking of theocratic type states. How many persons were tortured and executed in various types of "inquisitions" based on assumptions and false testimony. In this country the same kind of morality was pervasive in the early witch trials. So, deliver me from State/Church mandated religion. The cure is at least as bad as the disease.

Pamella wrote:
You still have given me no biblical reason for SDAs to stand with atheists on a ban of prayer in the public schools. Especially when they ignore the abortion issue. Why are the SDAs not leading the march against partial-birth abortion? I will tell you why. Because they do not think that the sixth commandment is as important as the fourth. Because the fourth commandment is their identifying commandment. They are too focused inwardly to live in the outside world. Therefore, they refuse to take a stand on current events unless it threatens their little domain. As long as the US avoids the church/state issue or anything having to do with Sunday, the country can go to hell in a handbasket and who cares.

J. Norris writes:
Solomon said, " . . . keep my words and treasure up my commandments with you; . . . bind them on your fingers, write them on the tablet of your heart" (Prov 7:1,3).

God says, "But this is the covenant which I will make . . : I will put my law within them, and will write it upon their hearts . . ." (Jer 31:33). Mandating prayer in schools and posting the Decalogue on walls will only bring religious ostracism and persecution.

Pamella replies:
Wait just a minit! No one ever said prayer was to be mandated in schools. It is to be allowed. Right now Christian students in the public schools in most parts of the country have to be sneaky in order to pray before a test or to have a prayer meeting or organization. This is unconstitutional. A student has the right to pray anytime, anywhere, guaranteed by the Constitution.

And don't SDAs more than just about anyone demand that the Ten Commandments must be kept? And yet they object for them to be posted in public?? Does this mean that SDAs want to keep the truth to themselves and not let it get out to the world?

It has always been God's intent that morality should spring from the heart, and that it should begin at home (Deut. 6:4-9). That is where prayer needs to be mandated and the Decalogue posted,

And, when it is not being taught at home, just let the kids of the nation go down the tubes? It is burying your head in the sand to think that our nation is not in serious trouble and that you can ignore it by saying that morality should be taught in the home. How do you think we got into this mess in the first place? We removed prayer from the schools, the Bible from being read in class, any mention of God in the classroom, and we have an entire generation of kids with no religious education whatsoever.

if again, there is a true inculcation of the essence of the love of God in the home.

So you are not concerned about the present state of our children in this country? We Christians should just sit back and watch and shake our heads? I have taught in the public schools for 20 years. Very few children are not getting any moral guidance at home anymore. Granted, I do not believe that my job as an educator is to teach moral values, but I must do something. Too many people are sitting back on their religious beliefs, shaking their heads and not doing a darn thing.

Lying, temper, injustice, prejudice, etc., were not allowed in our house. Truthfulness, understanding, fairness, love, etc., were exemplified in the lives of my parents (No they were not perfect), but I got the point.

You and I were raised in a different era. We had prayer and the ten commandments. There are no absolutes in today's America.

Besides, who took prayer and the Ten Commandments out of public schools? What is forbidden is state or school mandated prayer.

Thank you for making my point. So why do SDAs get all hot and bothered when someone in the country says we need to find our way back to God?

Then there is the violence and cynicism of the media, the video culture, and the rock culture. Our youth imbibe this stuff every day for hours and hours, at home, in arcades, in theatres, at concerts, et al. This is what is 'taught diligently to our children, when they sit in the house, when they walk by the way, when they lie down, and when they rise up. The internet is bound upon their hands and video games are as frontlets between their eyes. Violence and hatred are written on the doorposts and gates of many a home' (and the parents frequently do not know it. Some teach it.) (a parody on Deut 6:7-9).

These are only the symptoms of the disease; the disease is a lack of moral standards. Again I ask, why do SDAs fight against any attempt to reestablish moral standards in this country?

Deliver me from misguided religious persons, who think that God has anointed them to legislate some brand of religion on everyone.

Allowing prayer in the public schools is hardly legislating a brand of religion on anyone.

And deliver me from a "theocratistic" government, which will assume power to teach somebody else's version of religion to my children, which will legislate what day they can and cannot go to church, and, if followed through to its consistent conclusion, will punish me and my children for what we think, or at least what somebody thinks we think, or because our belief system, though deeply devout, spiritual, and moral, does not conform to that which the State adheres to. That is the Inquisition in all its forms (Catholic and Protestant) and witch hunts (for persons who had no relation to witchcraft). When it happens, then I think we will be too late concerned about our religious freedoms. So we ought to do religious freedom, without leaving other undone (a parody on Mt 23:23).

You see what I mean? We start out with prayer in the public schools and we always end up with Sunday law. Come on, be honest! SDAs don't care one whit whether there is prayer in the public schools or the 10 commandments posted. All they care about is that someone doesn't mess with their favorite commandment. Thus, they are willing to swallow all kinds of evils in order to protect their unique distinguishing doctrine.

I can live with Clinton,

I can't! My husband is Dutch, and you should hear what the European countries think of Americans because of Clinton's immorality. We have become a sick joke to the rest of the world. This is what I mean about being able to live with all kinds of evil, just as long as no one messes with the fourth commandment. There are, after all, 10 commandments given in Exodus 20, not just one.

if I can teach my children to follow my example as I follow Christ's, and the Muslim can teach her children to follow Allah, and the Jew can teach his children to follow Jahweh, and the Buddist, and the Hindu . . .

So it is ok with you of other children of our nation choose to follow in his footsteps? And you have a very laisse faire attitude about non-Christian religions also. Should we not have a burning desire for them to be converted to Christ also? It is this sectarian mentality that seriously bothers me. In other words, who cares what goes on in the rest of the world, as long as it doesn't happen in my house or in my church?

Please tell me what on earth can prevent another Nixon, another Reagan (Nicaraguan scandal) and another Clinton--prayer in schools and 10 Commandments on the doors? Give me a break. It is much deeper than that.

No, you give me a break. You think that Christians should roll over and play dead politically until it affects one's own pet doctrine? You think that Christians should not work to make the country more moralistic and to fight against the forces that produced Clinton? One might as well build you a compound and fence himself and his family in. Obviously, if they all have this outlook, SDAs have little to contribute to society, except to save it from prayer in the public schools.

And please remember that even the Israelite Theocratic System did not exclude Ahab, Manasseh, and other immoral leaders (some of whom practiced infanticide and genocide). Why did the prophets of God cry out time and again against idolatry, spiritual adultery, injustice, etc. And they even had Deut 6:1-6. They had the 10 commandments in stone!

So we should roll over and play dead? So we should ignore all the evils in society? This does not prove your point.

Well, now it's your turn to say, "Whew." :-). I do not want the same government which has pretty well given up on slavery and jim crow (and I take those personally, as do all my people), to now begin to apply the same constraints on my religion.

Perhaps you should check out another government, then. May I recommend Kosovo, or, perhaps, China. Maybe the Dutch government who legalized prostitution and drugs, but requires stores to close on Sunday? Perhaps you would be happier in one of the third world countries? I am surprised at your condemnation of the government, however, because most SDAs will not get involved unless the issue is one of legislation involving such terrible crimes and prayer in the public schools, posting the ten commandments in the courtroom, having a Nativity scene on a courthouse lawn, etc. Perhaps you would like for the words "under God" to be removed from the Pledge? And make it illegal for a witness to swear to tell the truth "so help me God"? I am not an "America--love it or leave it" type of person. I am just always amazed that, in general, SDAs feel no compulsion to be involved in public affairs unless they feel like it is going to rattle their one precious doctrine, and then they are willing to publicly take a stand with the ACLU and athiests. We can discuss this back and forth ad nauseum, but no matter what anyone says, I will never be able to understand that one.

I step down now from my soapbox.

In His grace,

Pamella

[This Jesuit here, like all the rest, after constantly even taunting and posting in that everyone needs to understand that people will see things differently (to push in their forbidden views) always wind up posting how they are amazed that people see things differently from themselves. This is how despots work and these are key and reliable ways for detecting Jesuits on medium where ideas are expressed.]

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