We respond: The very first problem is that this author has a problem with our church or any church desiring to remain separate from the others. In other words, he is showing himself to be ecumenical and this indicates prejudice of judgment. There have been sentiments before this twentieth century arrived and even before the nineteenth which encouraged all the churches to unite as one administratively. This was always feared and rejected by all the Protestant Churches, until recently through infiltration, for the Protestant Churches knew that any such a demand would originate from and would be orchestrated by Rome to reinstall herself into power. Once she is ever reinstalled into power, history shows that torture and death is always the result. Ecumenism has as its basic tenets the idea that this uniting must be with Rome and that Rome must control the result. Most who are ecumenical must bury this fact under all the lies. The actual purpose for it is for Rome to regain control and power. Once that is done, society will revert to Dark Ages policy. Anyone who tells you that uniting is merely cooperating with one another is either strongly deceived or is plainl lying! The call to unite is a call to surrender your liberties and everything else to the power of Rome!

If a church wants to be separate from all the others, it should be allowed its wishes and should exercise that right without the ire and criticism of those who told us that no one should be ridiculed for his honest views. Jesus Christ Himself did not unite His little group with the Jewish Church. Jesus did not unite with the Scribes nor the Pharisees, and the biggest reason for that was the fact that these groups had doctrinal error. Ecumenism goes around to tell the world that it doesn't matter if any church has doctrinal error. All they know is that Christ is all that is needed for salvation, therefore doctrine is not even necessary. Those who therefore are ecumenical and want to push for the power of Rome, would most effectively do that by presenting a very emotional even panting, all-absorbing, yet phony love for Christ. They would appear on forums in order to tell groups that they must give up the doctrines which separate their church from other church organizations, citing to all that there really is only supposed to be one faith, one church and one baptism (Eph. 4:5). They however mean that the church should be one administratively and by law and policy, and they will not tell you that their ultimate purpose is that you must unite with Rome. A love for power is covered over in phony love for Christ.

We have met such papal individuals on internet forums. They would begin to present research in an attempt to prove that our church has no justification for separating from the others. They use the words, "the others" in order to hide the truth that their quarrel is the fact that our churches are separated from Rome. As we begin to prove their research false, they then accuse us of not centering nor focusing upon Christ. They do it by telling us that all the churches must preach "The Pure Gospel," that is, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, AND NOTHING ELSE! "CHRIST PLUS NOTHING!" they would say. What they are trying to do here is to show us that Christianity is ONLY papal. Is this really true?

The very reason why the Protestant Churches separated from Rome was to discover and maintain more biblical truths after they had already discovered that Christ actually saves and not the works of a man. Strange people among us are telling us we must forget all that we have believed and just believe in Christ. Is it true that we are only to focus upon Christ therefore?

Please check the following link for the brief and to the point answer:

http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/llies.html

This website contains dialogue with an actual Vatican Militia person struggling to deceive the readers by presenting himself as an expert on "the Gospel" by warring against the distinctive beliefs of Adventism and that of all the others. Please take note of the two conclusions at the bottom of the webpage.

These on the forums then even told us that to defend our faith is to take our focus off of Christ, and that we were not to do it. We soon then noticed that all their posts attacked the structure and foundation of our faith and only had Christ as a small cherry in order to mask their purposes. Their inconsistencies were glaring, but they couldn't care. All they knew is that they were on a mission. Their foundation tenet clearly was, "The End Justifies the Means." We had a long time understood that they were the Militia of the Vatican.

At present the Militia of the Vatican have an incredible hold on the Adventist Church. Most of the leadership of the Adventist Church have secret loyalty to the Vatican, and are braced to demonstrate a formidable betrayal to that body unknowing to most Adventists. Most of her educational institutions and organizations are firmly in the hands of the Vatican through infiltration, and the people do not know this! The laity of the Adventist Church are largely infested by militant infiltrationist papal people. Among their imminent agenda is to cause crises and tragedies, and to make it look like those who refuse to unite under the papacy are to blame for them because of hate. They will be portrayed as HATEFUL, and that it was their belligerent and isolationist doctrines which made them that way. The general public will be greatly fooled by this, for Washington and the national media have been secretly controlled by these secret organizations for decades! Circumstantial evidence will point to the truest and most loyal Adventists.

Our focus will now continue to present the research of the person in question:

A study of the investigative judgment should thus begin with that verse and its residence in Daniel 8.

1b.THE SIMPLE FACIAL READING OF THE TEXT CANNOT SUPPORT THE TRADITIONAL ADVENTIST UNDERSTANDING OF IT. The text says that the sanctuary shall "be cleansed." The text says that the action is completed. A simple face-value reading of the text reveals something that will be completed, accomplished, at the end of a certain time period (2300 days). The sanctuary will be cleansed. HERE, AT SQUARE ONE, IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR THE TRADITIONAL ADVENTIST INTERPRETATION OF THIS VERSE. It is obvious that the sanctuary is not cleansed right now. This is obvious because whether the sanctuary be viewed as the sanctuary of the church (the body of Christ) or whether it be viewed as the sanctuary in Heaven (which contains the "records" or knowledge of the individual believers) they both are imperfect. The frailty and imperfection of Christian believers is obvious. Sin still plagues the Christian community. Which believer or believers will stand forth and say "We are now totally cleansed, in reality, not just by imputation from Christ!"? Since Jesus is still pleading His blood, and the virtues of His sacrifice before the Father, it is obvious that His virtues are needed. Believers are not yet totally "cleansed", and thus Heaven, where their sins are born by Jesus, cannot be yet considered "cleansed." It is also certainly obvious that neither sanctuary was "cleansed" in 1844, for the same reasons. The text does not say "then shall the sanctuary begin to be cleansed" as would be required by the traditional Adventist understanding. The text is plainly pointing to something that has not yet happened. Any alleged fulfillment in 1844 would have to be considered apotelesmatic, that is, a typical or prefigurative fulfillment short of the final and ultimate fulfillment.

We respond: This is false. The first reason why it is false is because as a unified voice, people like the one being examined had told us that Christ's children are cleansed at the cross. Here now, just for the sake of making the truth look ridiculous, this author tells us that the Sanctuary will be completely cleansed at the end of the 2300 days prophecy. All such authors stop there and do not explain themselves. When then were Christians cleansed? When did the process start? In 1844? Whether or not they believe in 1844, be sure that by no stretch of the imagination nor in any way it can be twisted or turned does this prophecy phase in the Sanctuary being completely cleansed at the cross! Yet there is more to prove this point as we continue with further statements by our antagonist:

2.THE DIALOGUE BETWEEN JESUS AND GABRIEL

2a.DOES A QUESTION DESERVE AN ANSWER? Gabriel, the angel of prophecy, is asking Jesus a question. That question is recorded in Daniel 8:13. Jesus speaks the answer to Gabriel in verse 14. Presumably we can trust that Jesus is giving Gabriel a sensible answer. Gabriel's question is, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" Basically Gabriel is asking, "How long will this haughty power, that persecutes God's people, be allowed to prosper?" If Jesus was saying the answer to that question was "1844 and that power will be demolished and My people vindicated." then Jesus has made a very big mistake. The anti-Christian, persecuting power was NOT brought to an end at that specific time, nor were God's people vindicated in any special way. In fact, they were embarrassed by the disappointment of 1844. They had been wrong and were taunted by some people. This is the opposite of vindication.

We respond: This is again false. The ultimate subject in discussion between the angel or saint and Jesus was not Rome (incidently, for some reason the writer here had a problem declaring that the power in question was Rome, for obvious reasons.  As he was telling us how important it was to understand that the Antichrist or Beast of Revelation here is the object of the vision, we kept asking him who that was then and he refused to answer.) BUT WAS THE JUDGMENT. Rome was not the key or major issue of the reason even for the visit of the heavenly beings to Daniel. When Daniel received his famous visions in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the key point or even purpose for the vision was not Rome. It was information for the good and well-being of God's people and the world. It was about the judgment. After the Judgment, there is nothing left!  Christ will come after the Atonement is complete.  Therefore the actual Second Coming of Christ was the main purpose behind the vision.  Both the Second Coming and preparation for it.  Persecution and trials had a clear reflection back on the Judgment.

The saint therefore asked, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" In that statement, the saint was actually asking, "How long will the judgment be delayed," for the cleansing of the Sanctuary was always a day of judgment and always involved judgment. The questions actually was also, "How long will it be before you return to the earth and put an end to all this madness and claim thy people?"  That is what Gabriel is actually asking.  The wording says:

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. -- Daniel 8:11-14

By this we understand some very important points. It was after Rome's long day of tyranny had left that the truths about the judgment began to be more fully known. The period of the Dark Ages, where the Bible was even outlawed and the truth was cast down to the ground, was a very unfair time to hold the judgment. The Lord is in control of all things, yet He allowed the Dark Ages to continue for a long time, and then moved it out of the way in order to commence the Investigative Judgment. The Lord delayed the cleansing of the Sanctuary in heaven till the Dark Ages were over. The Lord purposed that He would not start this important work of judgment without the human family both knowing and understanding that it was to come, or underway. 

Here now the important question: Our author is telling us that since the wording states that after 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed in the past tense, that means that then will that work be absolutely completed. This cannot be true for several reasons, the first of which was already given. If at that time the work would be completed, that would most likely mean that the beginning of the work would have been during the Dark Ages. No one would have advanced knowledge of what was transpiring in heaven, and no one would be able to herald its approach. It would come, and no one would even know it.

Anciently, before the cleansing of the Jewish Sanctuary took place, there were ten days of preparation given to the Children of Israel for that event. All of them were to repent of their sins, and to afflict their souls. Those who ultimately were caught not doing this, were put to death. At the expected date when the heavenly sanctuary was to be cleansed, the Lord moved upon a certain farmer named William Miller to herald its approach. Miraculously, although William Miller interpreted the cleansing of the Sanctuary to be Christ's literal appearing on the earth to cleanse it, his message demanded of its believers that they repent of their sins and afflict their souls in preparation for the time about to come. This aroused credit and interest to the prophecies--something which an earlier non-heralded start of the process could not have accomplished. The Millerites were the ONLY group of people who fulfilled the ancient typical conditions just before the cleansing of the Sanctuary. At the time Christ moved from the Holy to the Most Holy Place, there was only one comparatively obscure group of people who shared the honor of heralding the events taking place in heaven! This is a great honor!

Next point is that it is ludicrous to assume that Christ was actually telling the angel to reveal to Daniel when the work of the cleansing of the Sanctuary is to be completed. Anciently, after the cleansing of the Jewish Sanctuary, those who were found not afflicting their souls, were judged and put to death. This prefigures the awful fact that after the cleansing of the Sanctuary, then the Atonement would be completely finished. AT THAT TIME CHRIST WILL COME TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT UPON ALL. In other words, to reveal the time when the actual process of cleansing the heavenly Sanctuary of the sins of the people would be completed, IS TO REVEAL THE ACTUAL TIME THAT CHRIST WOULD COME BACK TO THE EARTH. This is something Christ himself has stated He did not know hundreds of years AFTER this vision was revealed to Daniel (Matthew 24:36).

Revelation 15 shows seven angels coming out of the Sanctuary in heaven with the vials of his wrath. This is what happens when the process is finished. It is at that time when Christ makes the famous statement:

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. -- Rev. 22:11, 12.

We can see that at that time there is no more forgiveness. The High Priest has finished His work, and there is nothing other than death for the transgressor and life for the obedient. No pleading for forgiveness at that time helped anyone anciently, and neither will that be the case in the near future.

Therefore do not listen to what this man is saying. To reveal the actual time when the Sanctuary is finished being cleansed is to reveal the actual time when Christ is coming!

2b.WHICH EVENT? There are two events which would much better fit the requirements of the dialogue of Gabriel and Jesus in Daniel 8:13 and 14. These events are the close of human probation and the final lake of fire into which the devil and his angels will be cast.2 These possibilities are depicted in Diagram #1.

3.THE QUESTION OF THE "DAYS".

3a.2300 DAYS. It is possible to translate "2300 evenings and mornings" as "1150 days". Many of the modern translations, products of diligent scholarship, so translate Daniel 8:14. Obviously the traditional understanding of this verse cannot stand under this translation.

[This commentator is a Jesuit.  What he is trying to do is to claim that the Antichrist is Antiochus Epiphanes and not the papacy.  That's where he got the 1150 days from.]

We respond: It is true that the traditional Adventist understanding cannot stand under this translation, and neither can the truth, for within the Adventist understanding of this prophecy are other events which must mesh--that including the actual death of Christ. This is something that cannot fit the fanciful gymnastics that must be accomplished here. If what this author is saying is true, then the Sanctuary was still yet cleansed much earlier than our day and we are hard pressed for the reason for why Christ is not back here yet, and why people are still praying for forgiveness of their sins, expecting that a High Priest in heaven is listening to them.

[Antiochus Epiphanes lived and died almost 2 centuries before Christ was even born.  Jesus said, speaking about the abomination of desolation we're talking about here:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Christ is here talking about a future event.  Antiochus Epiphanes was, at the time of that statement, long dead!  Jesuits are always desperate to put in the idea that Antiochus Epiphanes is the Antichrist.  At the same time, wherever they are infiltrated, they also will always desperately and persistently claim they are not Jesuits.  But true prophecy isn't even vague.  The prophecy about the Antichrist points only to the Papacy.  It should be that the biggest proof of this is the fact that scripture states the Antichrist will start to rise in Paul's day:

2 Thessalonians 17:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God....
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Then the prophecies of Revelation show a terrible persecution in the last days till Christ will have to come and deliver His people.]. Our antagonist continues:

3b.EREB BOQER. The Hebrew ereb boqer, translated "evenings and mornings" always means literal "days" in its other Biblical uses. Saying that these days are really "years", as the traditional Adventist interpretation does opens the door for theistic evolutionists to put long ages into the account of Genesis 1. "Evening and morning" (ereb boqer) is used several times in Genesis 1. [The year for a day principle only meshes with symbolic prophecy.  The bible account of a literal six days of creation are not bible symbolic prophecy, and therefore each day of creation does not stand for a year.]

3c.DAYS OR YEARS? The case should not be made so viciously, as it is by many traditionalists, that these "2300 days" cannot be literal days. This is because of the simple Biblical hermeneutic (articulated by many Adventists and confirmed by Ellen White, William Miller and common sense) that Scripture is to be first understood as literal, unless there is good reason to interpret it symbolically. NO SOUND HERMENEUTIC IS AVAILABLE THAT WOULD INSIST THESE "DAYS" BE UNDERSTOOD AS YEARS ONLY.

We respond: This is not true. In symbolic prophecy, it is customary that time also be symbolic. In the particular prophecy in question we saw a ram, a he-goat and all with horns, and yet we cannot imagine that a day equals a year as had been the case with the earlier vision of Daniel in Daniel 7 depicting events that spanned over centuries?! In case scenarios like that, the standard of measurement would likely not be literal days. Still yet there is the problem that no sense can be made out of the prophecies if they are counted as literal days. Usually those who attack Adventism cannot fill the gap and void created by their deception, and they make many excuses for why they do not have to.

3d.THE RAM-GOAT ERA. One of the reasons given for reading the "days" as years is that if it was only considered as "days" (which is what it literally says) it wouldn't span the ram-goat era brought to view in verses 3-8. The first thing that should be noted about this reasoning is that it is NOT based on a hermeneutical principle. This is reasoning built on trying to force a specific interpretation of the prophecy's words as the only interpretation.

We respond: That's this person's personal interpretation of the issues and our motives. Can someone tell me what the writer is trying to do here? Is the writer charging us with doing exactly what he is doing here? Are you sure he is not? We say a day equals a year. What does he say? He says that it does not. He tries to make all believe that he supports all other conclusions, and in that, does he escape the charge he laid at our door? He is telling us that it definitely does not mean what we say, and he does not care who disagrees.

The Ram-Goat era was not the focus of the prophecy. God sent messages to Daniel for the direct purpose of revealing to the latter day saints issues of importance to them. The issues were regarding the judgment, giving them signs when it would take place and the nearness of Christ's coming. It was for that reason that those prophecies were "sealed" till the time of the end. That sealing till the time of the end, did not take place for Christians to learn about Antiochus Epiphanes [who lived and died even before Christ] or anything related to the Greek Empire.

Daniel was given visions in Daniel 7 about prophetic beasts spanning over the entire history of the earth, down to the Little Horn and to the Second Coming of Christ. The other vision given him of the Ram and He-Goat, were also given to span all the way down to the judgment and the end of time.

Many have confronted us and told us that the purpose of this he-goat prophecy was to warn the saints about the Antichrist, and NOT to teach them about any investigative judgment. When they were then asked who then is the Antichrist, we discover that they, being papists, cannot even answer us. If the purpose of that prophecy was to teach us that Antiochus Epiphanes was the Antichrist, they would answer for us who the Antichrist is today since Antiochus Epiphanes has long been dead and other forces are working to take the world over today.

The writer continues:

But this interpretation falls if we will have the courage to apply the angelic interpreter's words to these "days." The angelic interpreter says that the words apply at the final end. It is obvious that Alexander the Great and Cyrus of Persia were not living in history's final end. The "days" do not have to "span over" the Alexander-Cyrus Greece-Persia era because they do not apply to that era. The angel says the "days" apply at the "end".

We respond: Gabriel says in Daniel 8:17:

So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

What does that mean?

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Then Daniel 12 says:  9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What it actually says is that the WORDS ARE "SEALED" UP till the time of the end, NOT THE EVENTS.  It doesn't mean that the events spoken of start then.  Daniel wanted an UNDERSTANDING of the vision, but he was told he would be denied that information.  When the time of the end came, then God's people began to understand it.  The Millerite Movement was the first key to understanding it.
 

Listen yourself to the language of the vision given to Daniel. Here there is obviously something very important the Angel is trying to reveal. He therefore speaks in Daniel 8:

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The angel is here talking about the "indignation." This refers to Christ's Second Coming after the Atonement has been completed. After that time, there will be nothing left for sinners except "INDIGNATION." Notice yet however how the prophecy traces events back to Daniel's day contrary to what this author is telling us: that essentially all that is being spoken to Daniel refers to the very end. Daniel is presently living in the Medo-Persian Empire. Why was that empire chosen as the start of the vision? The purpose of the angel in the visions to Daniel was to trace from his day to the end, showing events as they will transpire so that all can even identify the Antichrist and, when the time comes, will be able to tell when the Investigative Judgment has started. To believe that all understanding actually starts in the near future is to open up the sure word to confusion, which is typical of these who attack God's truth so inconsistently.

It is only actually about 157 years ago that the truth about all these issues were even discovered! The judgment is going on, and we now know that the time is imminent when the entire earth will become like the Most Holy Place! Christ is coming with a piercing gaze which only those who are pure and holy will be able to witness and live! This merely shows that the primary subject of the angel to Daniel was not Rome, BUT WAS THE JUDGMENT. The knowledge of the particulars were opened up at the time of the end: over 155 years ago! All that time to our day is indeed the time of the end. That was why Daniel himself was asked the meaning of what he was told, but was denied. The truth about it will only be known at the end. We now witness many attacking that truth, but providing in its place no solution or replacement for that prophecy, but here labor with us to actually tell us that we should forget all interest in this study because we have Christ! They are not here to teach us how to interpret these things correctly: THEY ARE HERE TO TELL US TO FORGET THEM. They are therefore LOST, for this is among the highest form of blasphemy! Revelation 22 shows us the rewards of all those who take away from the words of prophecy. Should we study the Revelation? Should we clearly know who the 666 Beast of Revelation is? Why should we even know these things? Do they save us??

3e.THE DAY-YEAR PRINCIPLE. The very attempt to say that a day equals a year does not have so firm a Biblical foundation as many Adventists assume. A day in Scripture is equated with a year (Num. 14:34), a thousand years (2 Pet. 3:8;), a branch (Gen. 40:12), a basket (Gen. 40:18), a twelve hour period (John 11:9), and a twenty-four hour period (Gen. 1:5). The first four of these "equations" are used only once in Scripture. The "day-equals-a-year" equation is one of those used only once. A principle must be based on at least two usages. There is thus no Biblical foundation for insisting that "a day equals a year".

We respond: Anyone can substitute any of the other options and see if the prophecy makes sense. When the year-day principle is added, the prophecy makes MUCH sense. Other than that, it doesn't because no other interpretation is the truth PERIOD! The very author here can do so--can substitue and show us how his interpretation makes sense, but does not to a tracing of events so that we can know what is happening and can herald its approach. His theses do not eliminate confusion, but creates it. Neither again, does he present a correct interpretation so that the world can know what the prophecy means. He is actually telling us that no one knows what it means, but that it will be revealed in the future. The author continues:

3 The most that can be said is that "in one place in the Bible a day is used to represent a year. Therefore it could be possible that this 'equation' (day=year) would have other applications, but there would be nothing textually to demand this interpretation."

We respond: The author here is talking about "could be" may be. He is merely trying to put the foundations of what we believe into doubt, to then advance his thoughts, but he does not back up his interpretation by showing us which interpretation of a day or year should receive our backing. He is trying to scatter our brains. Someone who does this and demands that we give up our beliefs had better speak in more sure tones and not tell us about what could or might be. [In SYMBOLIC PROPHECY, the year-day principle is rather consistent.  Symbolic prophecy didn't come that often to speak of.  It is very important for prophecy related to the last days.

The person in discussion here was the one who claimed he would attack anything that gets in the way of all the churches uniting.  He was the one who attacked Adventism relentlessly, claiming he has to attack it because it has "holes" in its interpretation, and then later proved he wanted the Adventist Church to give up all consideration for prophecy ENTIRELY.  He attacked because he claimed consideration for prophecy and distinctive or special doctrines is what makes Adventists not want to join with all the other Christian faiths in a One World Church.  That is the very motivation of all treason in the new movements dominating the Seventh-day Adventist Church and all others today.

Notice that all this focusing on the time of Judgment by the Lord was SEALED, so that your great-great-great Christian grandmother can tell all around her in confidence that the Lord is coming SOON, and that she expects to see him in her day.  She was not a liar for believing that, and neither were prophets!]

He continues:

4.THE TIME 4a.THE END. There are three specific references by the interpreting angel to the time that this vision of ram-goat applies. All three refer to the final time of the end, a time which has not come yet: (1)8:17 At the "time of the end" shall be the vision. (2)8:19 "I shall make thee know what shall be at the LAST END of the indignation." (This last end, the remnant end, has not come yet.) (3)8:19 "For at the time appointed the END shall be."

We respond: Yes, but the vision involves a tracing of events going clear down to that time. The prophecy doesn't START at the end, but it starts back in ancient times--back to the time of DANIEL! In the vision of Daniel 7, Daniel was already getting accustomed to being shown the tracing of events from his day to the end. That was the special purpose of the Lord to Daniel and thence to us. It was to let us know what is to happen and not to confuse us in order to satisfy the cravings of some. It is the judgment that starts at the end. That was the point of focus!  By learning when the Judgment starts, many will be able to get a clue when finally the earth's history will close.  THAT IS THE KEY ISSUE OF THE ENTIRE VISION! 

The judgment is at the end of the world. Paul thought that his day was the last days. The judgment CAN ONLY TAKE PLACE AT THE END OF THE WORLD, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING ELSE AFTER IT. AFTER THE JUDGMENT CHRIST COMES TO DESTROY THE WICKED AND GATHER THE SAINTS. The "indignation" refers to the time when the Investigative Judgment is completed, and no more High Priest stands to mediate for sins. Then Christ comes to execute judgment upon all.

Now, in order to promote his ridiculous ideas, the author then gets away with himself. Notice that throughout all his movements, he covers his agenda charging Adventists, who naturally do not agree with his views, with merely struggling to support an erroneous interpretation in order to save their dogmatic church. Watch what he does now in order to prove that THE ENTIRE PROPHECY revealed to Daniel did not even start yet:

4b.MEDIA AND PERSIA. But it may be replied, "What about the angelic interpreter's mention of the two kings Media and Persia? Since these were kingdoms in the past, doesn't their mention require this vision be interpreted in the past?" The obvious answer to this question would be yes!, except that the Bible must be its own interpreter, and the Bible uses the name "prince of Persia" to refer to a high-ranking demon (Daniel 10:13,20). [As you can see here, the author is happy if we can interpret that entire prophecy either in the past or in the future from now so that Rome or the Dark Ages is not indicated for anything.]

Thus if "Persia" is the name of a demon and a demonic kingdom, that demon is alive now in this "time of the end". There is, of course, every reason to believe that this demon and his influence is in the general geographic location of physical Persia, just as anciently this demon no doubt concentrated his influence there. Modern Iran is the former Persia; Iran was still called Persia in the early decades of the Twentieth Century. The Kurds, a major ethnic group in Iraq, are the descendants of the Medes4 and thus it would be fair to say that much of modern Iraq is in the territory of the ancient Medes. Isn't it interesting that these two powers have gained center stage in world news in recent years? 4c.GRECIA. The same objection may be brought up about the he-goat that comes from the West. The angelic interpreter says that this goat "is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king." (Dan. 8:21) Since "Grecia" (Greece) is not a modern world power, it might be claimed that this part of the Scripture was fulfilled in the fourth century before Christ when Greece was a world power. And this would certainly make sense, except for basic New Testament revelations. If the Bible is allowed to interpret itself, the apostle Paul uses the term "Greek" many places in the New Testament (Rom. 1:14-16; 10:12; 1 Cor. 1:22-24; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11) and he uses it to mean that part of the world influenced by Grecian culture, or what we would call today "Western civilization". He makes this plain in Colossians 3:11 where he uses "Greek" in contrast to barbarian or Jew: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Thus, when the angelic interpreter tells Daniel that the rough goat is "Grecia" and we must look for a modern fulfillment of this term (because the interpreter insists so in the three places quoted above), it is basically what we would call "the West" today, the civilized world with a heritage of Grecian culture. When the angelic interpreter says that the great horn "is the first king" this would not be a reference to Alexander (who was not the first king of Greece) but to the United States who is unquestionably the leading power among the nations of "the West" today. ("First" is translated from a word meaning "foremost".) 4d.AT THE TIME OF THE END. In Daniel 8:17 quoted above, the angelic interpreter says, "Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." The traditional Adventist interpretation has not consulted this comment from the angel. The traditional view says that the vision will span a long period, beginning in the past and extending to the time of the end. But the angel does not say that. The angel says the entire vision will take place "at the time of the end." [As we have shown above, the angel said the vision shall be "sealed up" till the time of the end, meaning it will be understood then and not that the prophecy will start then.  Daniel 8:

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Then Daniel 12 says:  9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

It says that the WORDS are sealed up...  NOT THE EVENTS!] 

Even upright and honest scholars have their vision blurred by tradition and "fear of the Jews"; Note an Adventist scholar explaining this verse (Dan. 8:17): "As far as the 2300 days are concerned, the angel Gabriel said that this period would reach to 'the time of the end.' (Dan. 8:17)."5

Notice that Gabriel's words are mishandled. Gabriel decidedly does not say that the vision would reach to the time of the end, but that it would take place "at the time of the end."

We respond: Again, the author charges us with his attributes. Again, the judgment is at the end. THE TRACING TO THE JUDGMENT in order to establish a timetable IS NOT TO START AT THE END. Other than what Adventism has shown therefore, we have the far more questionable interpretation of this author who then tells us that maybe this will happen and that will happen, and his agenda is accomplished. We know that the kingdom of Medo-Persia was destroyed by the Grecian Empire. How is that not a part of the prophecy in question? The author totally ignores this, and for what purpose? He stated our purpose for declaring that the prophecy started way back then, was just to push our own agenda. Every step of the way he accuses people of merely trying to exalt themselves over others and to force their opinions upon others, and then supplants for the truth theories that are far more speculative, hidden, questionable, etc.

In what he is saying therefore, he is telling us that in the future, the time will come when somebody will be able to tell when the cleansing of the Sanctuary in heaven is completed, and therefore when Christ will come. Someone will soon find out the start of the 2300 day prophecy to begin in the future according to our author, and from then in the future, will be able to tell when Christ comes through being able to tell when the Sanctuary is completely cleansed. Soon someone will be actually able to tell the day of Christ's arrival. This is something that the most virulent opposers of Adventism have always frothed at the mouth about till there was just no more room to discuss about Christ anymore!

FOOTNOTES of our author:

1 Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Pacific Press: Mountain View, CA, 1971, p. 409.

2 See Larry Pahl, "What Time is it?", Sept/Oct 1989. 7439 Shaw Rd, Belvidere, IL 61008.

3 Traditional Adventism says that there are two usages of the day for a year principle. Besides Numbers 14:34 quoted in the text they would add Ezekiel 4:6: "And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." But here God is letting a year of iniquity be represented by a day of Ezekiel's affliction. Thus Numbers 14:34 gives a day for a year, but Ezekiel 4:6 gives a year for a day. These two equations represent an inversion and are not equivalent equations. To give a different example might help explain the point. Some Bible interpreters say that trees represent men. ("...that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." Isaiah 61:3) The first thing we must recognize here is that trees are not men, just as days are not years. A tree is a tree and a day is a day. It is a metaphor to say that a tree is a man and a day is a year. So let us accept the Bible interpreters' equation for a moment, that a tree represents a man. It would be inappropriate, however, to conclude that a man represents a tree. Unless the Bible gives reason elsewhere for that conclusion one must stick with the equation that a tree represents a man.

4 The Kurds "claim to be descended from the ancient Medes." George Rentz, "Medes", Encyclopedia Americana, 1991 edition. Also "Hamadan is the site of ancient Hagbatana of Ectabana, the capital of the Medes, ancestors of the Kurds, when Belshazzar feasted while these mountain horsemen were moving down on his palace at Babylon (Daniel 5)." "Mountain Tribes of Iran and Iraq", National Geographic, March, 1946, p. 394.

5 Robert W. Olsen, One Hundred and One Questions on the Sanctuary and Ellen White, p. 12. (Available from Ellen G. White Estate, 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, MD.)