JESUIT DIALOGUES !!
Harvey Plunkett's Challenge! Part I
Updated 11/15/2003: made easy to print out
[The following is the first bonafide challenge against the claims of our website in defense of Adventism. The author is one who posts by the name of Harvey Plunkett.
You may find it rather difficult to read since it is wordy, lengthy, and stresses how those who don't agree with his conclusions are deluded.
To put it more plainly, what he is telling us first is that the October 22, 1844 date for the cleansing of the sanctuary is incorrect. He uses the same arguments every other avowed enemy of the faith would use. Even so, we do not conclude that even proving that the actual date should have been in September of 1844 actually destroys Adventism. That is the very reason why no opposer of Adventism actually ever stops there. If Harvey had stopped there, Adventism would and could never be destroyed under that premise. The problem is that he also goes further. Since proving that the actual date for the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary is September of 1844 can never destroy Adventism, what is the point to even mention it?
Yet Harvey next goes on to tell us that the prophecy of the Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9 begins at the going forth of the command to restore and rebuilt Jerusalem in 457 B.C., but he is telling us that the 2300 days prophecy does not begin at that same time. He is telling us that since the prophecy of Daniel 8 spends considerable time talking about the Little Horn, it must be that the 2300 days prophecy starts when the Little Horn comes to power. Otherwise, he contends, we have no good reason to start the 2300 days prophecy at the going forth of the command to restore Jerusalem (457 B.C.).
Here is his presentation:]
From:
harvey plunkett
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:02 AM
To: tmac1238@seventh-dayadventism.com
Subject: The Investigative conclusion.
This Advent conclusion for the 2300 days between the years 1843 and 1844 was first propagated By William Miller, Not SDAs. The actual date, Oct.22, 1844, fixed for the Day of Atonement in that year was the product of the mind of Snow a short time previous to the arrival of that date set.
That the Day of Atonement was the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish calendar is in sound Biblical and historic agreement.
The provable calendar facts from both the Orthodox Jews and the Karaite Jews in the year, are that both these sects of the jewish religion respected the very same month, and day of the year 1844 for the Day of Atonement. That provable date was September, 23rd, a full month prior to the "7th Month Movement." Had Mr. Miller known the date Oct. 22, did not accord with either the Bible or the present Calendar of both sects of Jews, His honesty would not have permit him to support Snow's date set.
The interpretive elements for the concept which was later to become known as the doctrine of "The Investigative, or Pre-advent Judgment was born out of haste, the morning following Oct.22, 1844.
The Firm Biblical chronology of prophetic world events from Daniel chapters 2,7,8, 11 and 12 and Revelation chapters 11,12, and 13, with regard to the commencement of the time sets ( 1260 days, 1290 days. and the 1335 days), presents each to have the same commencement "from the time the daily sacrifice" should be taken away, and the abomination that should make desolate set up." Dan. 7:24-25; 12:7,11-12).
This same Firm Biblical chronology of prophetic world events from Daniel chapters 2,7,8, 11, and 12 is directly connected with the commencement and ending of the 2300 days period of the Little Horn power that is the leader of the "Trangression of desolation" that should "magnify himself to the Prince of Host (Messiah), and that should "pollute the Sanctuary of strength" (Dan. 11:31) and "tread underfoot, both the Sancuary and the Host, until the Sanctuary should be cleansed at the lose of the 2300 days" (Dan.8:11-14) when the Corrupting Little Horn of "Dark Sentences" (Dan.8:23) should be "Broken without hand." Dan.8:25-26. So the period of the 2300 days could not begin until the "Daily" had been taken away which should "set up" the little Horn in his power to "prosper and practise" (Dan.8:24) over God's people, to "scatter their power" (Dan.12:7) and to "destroy them." Dan.8:24.
This Biblical Chronology of both Bible and History affirm the 1260 years should be the commencing years of the 2300 years, and not toward the latter end. It also shows how impossible the interpretation is that the 70 weeks (490 years) of the 1st Advent, and the period of the 2300 days should be accounted together from the year 457B.C. since each is proven to be two distinctly separated time periods, completely separated one from the other by about 504 years. The 70 Weeks ending about 34A.D. The 2300 years (day for a year) commencing about 538 A.D. and to End when the Little Horn shall be "broken without hand,"(Dan.8:25) "given to the burning flame,"(Dan.7:11) at the close of "the vision of the evening and the Morning" (Dan.8:26), "destroyed with the brightness of Christ's (2nd) Coming." 2Thess.2:8.
This does not leave us an indefinite end for the 2300 years, since we do know what the approximate year was When the Bishop of Rome was established in his power over Christianity, by the help of the waning empirical leadership to eliminate three of the lesser kingdoms that stood in opposition to his rising, centralising authortiy as the figure head of God over all Christendom, as Christianity was fast spreading out from the countries that surrounded the Mediterranian sea. It does still leave us, in the words of Jesus, not knowing "the Day, nor the Hour of thte coming of the Son of Man," which of course could not have computed, even to an approximate year, at the time he spoke those words; because until the Bishop, That "Mystery of Iniquity" had presented himself in history, in the manner described for his appearance, the commencing year of the 2300 years could not possibly have been known. Of course where the beginning year is not known, it is logical that not even the greatest of mathematicians of that time or this could possibly have computed the approximate year of the end. Jesus did not lie then, and neither am I lying now. The truth is written to be known.
Truth reveals error. This Bible and history confirmed chronology of world events to the period of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:9-14 simply proves that these days first computed by William Miller to close on Oct. 22, 1844, cannot be correct, and therefore the doctrine of the Investigative, or Pre-advent Judgment, given birth on the 23rd day of that same year, to substantiate and perpetuate that year as a "fulfilment of the words of prophecy", by embarrased Adventists, is as much in error as the now provable miscalculation.
Now, What respect should I have for your mind with regard to your "Investigative Conclusion?" Your article offers an arguement in defense for that which is not true, primarily on the basis of the tradition of thought as you were taught. Your argument is full of denial of what does not agree with (Our) more than 150 year SDA doctrinal defense for Miller's personal error. You see, I know where you are coming from. And I know that you know where I am coming from, having read and evaluated your article, The Investigative conclusion."
That the Day of Christ will come. And as Mr. Miller continued to anticipate, after the event of 1844, that day will end the 2300 years, whether there should or should not be a Pre-advent, or Investigative Judgment, proclaimed by SDAs. That near year is approaching and can be computed to an approximate year. If You are sure that the Bishop of Rome was set in power after plucking up three lesser kingdoms about 538 A.D., (and, if you are SDA, that is what our literature does teach well), you have no problem now calculating what we have also being taught we can not possibly know.
The Facts are before us from both Bible and History. William miller died in an assurance that he had erred in his computation. He also died knowing that a correction for his mistaken computation should be found in a proper chronology of the described prophetic sequence for this worlds events to transpire toward the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ. What Miller believed was the true answer for the Advent Dissapointment, is exactly what I have found in the sound Bible Chronology. Please not that Miller was never in error for believing that the Christ's Second Coming would close the count on the 2300 years. This He belief held firm to the end, yet not knowing where his eror in chonology might have been. It is now no wonder to my mind why Miller would not continue with those who held on to what he knew was a bold error.
In closing, it should be understood I am not attacking SDAs for those things we hold in common concerning the doctrines of salvation in Christ in general. I am aware that so many who have left the church do cast aside, or some how forget what they were taught of Christ's sacrifice of love and forgiveness. It still is my understanding, from the Scriptures, that our general approach as, a christian body amid all Christianity, at least from an academic point of view, is on the more sound "Scriptural basis with regard to Christ's love, Christ's Morals. Yes, and even with regard to Bible prophecy on the whole concerning Judgment now and to come concerning Christ's hope for a people to Himself and His execution of punishment upon all who refuse to acknowledge the truth when he has so graciously provided opportunity for the knowing.
The greatest obstruction we hold in our way, of progression in the truth of the Mind of Christ, is personal or collective organizational pride.
"White Stone"
Click here to witness our reply to this challenge!