JESUIT DIALOGUES !! VII
(Trouble on the Internet discussion
forums! ATODAY). . .
Probing the mind of Greg Billock!
Updated 12/27/2005
[EC Starts to comment after Tom Norris again called him a Communist, and then added that he was a Nazi:]
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 06:31 am:
You must thank Tom for all those subtle heresies he pushed upon us. He is trying to convince us that the enemies of the Gospel are those who oppose his ideas while he is a friend of it. He keeps telling us about the righteousness of Christ. What righteousness was it that told us this church must have a free thought environment and then wrote all those condemnatory remarks in this post of his? What kind of righteousness was it that called us "communists" and now nazis because we refuse to allow a free-thought environment that will allow his ideas to dominate our church also as it is already dominating all the others, and yet he calls us communists and nazis? Where do you find such righteousness? Did AT Jones and Waggoner also possess that form of righteousness in the 1888 meeting? Did they call for a free-thought environment JUST TO PUSH THEIR IDEAS and then demonstrated that to even let their foot into the door would cause a destruction of all opposing ideas as is clear with Tom and every other enemy of Adventism? Where in the scriptures is there a call for free-thought environments where all are allowed to question their doctrines in every church only to guarantee the success of ideas by people like Tom? If you allow a free-thought environment Tom's ideas will dominate. The reason for that is clear: he doesn't support the claim that your ideas must be on par with his. He will jump upon your ideas to destroy them while claiming we must have a free-thought environment.
Let us first eliminate much of this rubbish. Tom is telling us that salvation is not by faith PLUS works. The first statement to be made is that aside from all of this, it must be made clear that Tom ENCOURAGED DISOBEDIENCE. The message of Jones and Waggoner we have seen were good. But in their efforts to show that salvation is not at all by works, did they ENCOURAGE DISOBEDIENCE? Did they tell anyone that they can go to work on the Sabbath and do their jobs well to more fully commemorate the Sabbath? Did Jesus do that? I thought that in Christ there was no sin. Why was there no sin in Christ? Was it because Christ's sins were covered? If Christ's sins were covered, who covered them?
Yes, salvation is not at all by works. Why then does the Adventist Church and Christianity throughout all the ages encouraged good works? Why does Christ say in Rev. 2:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.?
Please go to this weblink I found extremely informative on this issue. It is an actual parable that explains this situation in simple terms:
http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/GospelParable.html
Once you are condemned by law, your good works can never save you from its penalty, for you are a debtor. Other than paying the penalty, there is no hope for anything you can do to eliminate the condemnation. You can't behave good in jail and expect that that good behavior will relieve you of the penalty you had earlier incurred. Someone has taken our place.
Thing is, that person made a covenant with us. He made an agreement, and in that agreement we are to do EVERYTHING that the maker of the covenant commanded. We are the underdogs and are in dire circumstance. We listen closely in order to make sure that we follow exactly everything that person making the covenant has asked us to do. We have signed a contract upon entering the religion of Christ. Works can NEVER save us, but we must acknowledge that it was because of ill works that brought about our calamity and called for the need of a Saviour.
From beginning to end our works is not what saved us. Adventism attests to this, and I can find much literature that reiterates this in Adventism. The gospel Tom is bringing however, urges us to go a step further in proving that works do not save us, by telling us that we are to be disobedient so that we can despise the Atonement, and actually do the very things again which brought about the need for a suffering Saviour. Tom places his message very shrewdly and with subtlety. According to him, we must now do away with the "long lists" of showing us when is sundown on Friday and on Saturday that mark the beginning and end of the Sabbath. I know of no such "long lists," but Tom has to insert condemnatory ideas which ridicule the views of others so that he can brace himself to call those who disagree with him communists and nazis. Is it true that Christ Himself did away with such "long lists?" Is it true that while the other Jews were marking the edges of the Sabbath, Christ honored the Sabbath in His carpenter's shop? If that were true, why did the Pharisees find it difficult to condemn Him for Sabbath breaking?
Since our works now, according to Tom, do not save us (with the intent to force us to be disobedient), what was the message of the day of Atonement about to be antitypified in heaven before the people? What about when the trumpets were blown during the days of Ancient Israel to allow some ten days of preparation in afflicting their souls, repentance, confession and forsaking of sin in awaiting the High Priest to enter into the Most Holy Place? Is there some message for us regarding that issue? Doesn't Adventism tell us that the time is now upon us when every living human being is going to have to stand before a holy God without a Mediator? What does Tom's message do with all of that?
I have been given the following very interesting point. What is the meaning of this scripture:
Jer. 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Who is being referred to here? The scripture shows that the participants will be saved out of their trouble. This therefore shows that it is talking about the saints. Does this in any way show that these saints have accepted the gospel of Tom Norris? Do you understand now why people similar to Tom have been trying to force us to celebrate? Who can explain what is the reason for their terror? Could it be that they are thinking about that Investigative Judgment that people among us are attacking in the false mandate for free thought? Are they here to make us mess up in that crucial hour? Is it the righteousness of Christ that causes them to encase us with this deception?
As is shown by the webpage, it is true that we are actually not saved by our works just as in the scenario with jail. It is also true that, both with jail and in salvation, once our penalty has been defeated by another outside source outside of ourselves, further disobedience will cause us to lapse back into our calamity. We must also listen to every word coming out of the mouths of those who have taken upon themselves a great sacrifice to save us. That is THE GOSPEL. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Therefore the words proceeding out of Adventism gives credit to the whole scripture. If you believe what Tom is telling you, you can get by with an extremely narrow and condensed abridged version of it. There are many words presently there which have to be eliminated.
Yes, in accordance with the judgments of Tom, the saints long to go to that SS camp in heaven with Hitler, Stalin and the rest of them!
EC
[The following is an example of all the support the enemies of truth have on the forums. We would love that there would be more supporters of the truth active, but most such people have been convinced by the very teaching and preaching of the enemies of the Gospel that they should just be concerned about their own spiritual lives, and that God is going to handle everything and every problem to come. They therefore must mind their own business and concentrate on Christ. Who can tell these Adventists that the people who taught them that can never be content to view things that way so long as Adventist doctrine is still believed? Since yet Tom Norris always wrote about a free-thought environment for Adventists, let's see how even true it is by the following statement of this next poster:]
By Zyfryd Bertan Schubert (Zbs) on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 08:29 am:
Wow Tom, Thank You.
Your debate these last three weeks has been so powerful. Clear. Lucid. Incredible. You can't know how great a blessing it is to those like me who read but don't usually post. Thank you.
It was because of the Ford debates from Glacier View that I learned the gospel. I never learned it in Adventism in the prior 33 years. I guess some things only become clear in controversey.
Yes Clarke, you are a not see. You're as blind, poor and naked as anyone I've ever known. May God grant you the cure---or else double the weight on that strong back and stiff neck until you cry out for it.
zb
By Bob Lee (Rlee) on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 08:44 pm:
Tom,
Permit me to point you to a series of stories which Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and scribes. You can follow along in Luke 15 (Jesus continued in Luke 16, but the implications of that story are beyond the scope of this post).
Jesus first told of a man who had a hundred sheep, one of which wandered off. The shephard left the ninety nine on the hillside while he searched for the lost one. The second story is of a lady who lost one of the ten coins she was saving. She searched for the lost one until she found it. The third story is about two boys who stood to inherit their father's money. One boy got his money early and squandered it; the other boy stayed with his father, but seemed to regret that he wasn't sowing a few wild oats of his own.
Let's examine the stories more closely. Who do they represent? Who, for instance, like the coin, don't know they are lost, don't participate in their salvation, don't know when they are found, and are represented by one out of ten of us? Let me suggest that the coin represents our children and perhaps the mentally retarded among us. Jesus, like the lady in the story, goes out of His way to bring these little ones into safe keeping.
But who is represented by the sheep? Here we are told that one out of a hundred find themselves lost, know they are lost but can't do anything about it, and when found need to be carried back to the fold where they are locked in!
Jesus seems to place the rest of us in one of two catagories. One could even suggest God expects us to goof up in one of two ways. Either we try to make it on our own (after being foolish with the resources God gives us) or we dutifully settle in to a life of meaningless boredom.
So we find four catagories of Christians (note that not one of the groups Jesus presents are "lost." They are all part of His kingdom, but have different characteristics). There is a fifth group, but I suspect you aren't ready to consider people as far out as the manager in Jesus' fourth story. You have been trying to tell us there is only one catagory. EC has also been trying to tell us there is only one (a different one). Stan seems to be trying to tell us that there are other factors which you are not considering. He's right.
Consider again, that sheep. It was lost. It knew it was lost, but it couldn't help itself. If you read the writings of Luther, you will realize that he was in this catagory. He believed he was lost, couldn't help himself, and didn't feel secure until he understood the doctrine you have been outlining. If you read "Good News Unlimited" and other writings by Dr. Ford, you will realize he too is in this catagory. My step daughter is also in this catagory (I've had this same discussion with her). And there are others, perhaps you are one. And that's OK. God has made provision for you. As you say, once you have turned your life over to God, He brings you home and locks you in the fold. There are many Bible promises to which you can cling which will be an encouragement to you. Perhaps from this perspective, you can recognize why I said we are on the same wavelength. I understand where you are coming from. And it's a good place to be.
Though you may not be able to accept the idea or need to, there are other catagories of Christians. The two boys, for instance. EC seems to be the "tried and true" believer represented by the older boy. Maybe a little resentful of his brethern who are getting away with things they wish they could enjoy, but good, solid citizens of heaven. In a lot of ways, I probably fit in that catagory too.
But then there is that youngster. Ran off with half the money, spent it wildly, and made a mess of his life. But tell me, did his father come seeking him like the lady did the coin or the shepherd did the sheep? When he got home, did his father punish him? Reprimind him? Reject him? Read the story, it's fascinating. But more to the point of this discussion, how did the boy get home? How much of his "salvation" did the father do? How much did anybody or anything else do for him?
Do I need to finish this for you? Can you understand as Stan keeps trying to tell you, that Jesus does NOT do it ALL for everyone. For some He does. For most of us, He TEACHES US how to "work out your salvation" (Phil 2:12. Check out verses 13 to 15 also to see the connection to what you have been saying). I understand you may not be able to comprehend this part of the gospel message, but others who have been reading these posts may be confused by some of the messages you posted. Perhaps this post will help illuminate the larger picture.
Bob Lee
By Robert Broyles (2brnot2b) on Saturday, March 4, 2000 - 12:52 pm:
So where has Adventism gone wrong? At the time this church was established (1863), the majority of Christians were following the dispensationalism movement. At the core of dispensationalism was the assumption that the Law of God had been was nailed to the cross (abolished).
So began the Adventist’s church vigorous attempt to oppose this teaching and uphold the law of God. But, in their attempt to holdup the Law they over-emphasized the law to the point of subtle legalism.
Today there are still two camps. The first camp involves the majority of Christians. These still teach that God’s law has been abolished. The other group (Adventists) still teach that God’s law has not been abolished and is therefore still binding upon the Christian. Who is right? Well, neither group.
Then there’s true Adventism. True Adventism teaches that while the law has not been abolished, the believer is no longer under its jurisdiction. In other words the law cannot say to the believer "obey & live, disobey and die."
Ellen White says it best: "The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises,"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law (agape)." [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 10-17-1907, The Two Covenants]
Yes, traditional Adventists make obedience to the law a condition for salvation. They back this by arguing that the law has not been abolished. But, this contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament: "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified." (Gal 2:16) On the other hand, most other Christians say the law has been abolished.
So what is the problem? If you say that salvation comes by the law you distort the gospel. If you say the law was abolished you still end up distorting the gospel.
Rightfully understood, the gospel and the law go hand in hand. Now when I say "gospel" I do not mean what Christ does in you through the Holy Spirit. This is the "fruits of the gospel." No, the gospel is nothing more then Christ’s birth, life, death and resurrection." So when I say the gospel and the law go hand in hand, I mean that Christ had to fulfill ALL the demands of the law in order that there would be a gospel to preach.
And what are the demands of the law? Turn to Leviticus 18:4 "You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD." In other words "obey & live."
Now turn to Deuteronomy 28:15 "But it shall come about, if you will not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you….20 "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds."
Why? Turn to Gal 3:10. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." In other words "disobey & die."
OK, so far we see that Christ must at least fulfill two of the demands of the law. Again, the first is "You must obey my laws…by which a man may live if he does them." And 2nd, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
What does this mean? First, Christ had to keep the law of God perfectly. No problems here. But the 2nd demand is equally applicable. He must die? "But wait," you scream, "He never sinned!" You’re absolutely right! So why did He die?
But before we try to answer the above question, let me bring out the third demand of the law: The law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty—"the soul that sins, it must die" (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1). Christ’s obedience (obey & live), and Christ’s death (disobey & die) - does not answer the demands of the law for YOU!
No, the law clearly states "YOU (not Christ) must obey my laws…by which a man may live if he does them." And again, the law says - "But it shall come about, if YOU (not Christ) will not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments….these curses shall come upon YOU (not Christ)!"
OK, so far we see that the law of God demands three things of the sinner:
1] You must obey the law in order to have life.
2] You must die the 2nd death if you disobey the law.
3] Another person cannot die INSTEAD of you!
Boy, this is a bit of a predicament! How did God solve the problem? It is called the gospel! Turn to 1 Cor. 1: 30. "But of Him (God the Father) YOU are ‘in Christ Jesus,’ who was made to us wisdom from God - justification (our death - the justice of the law), and sanctification (our obedience to the law) and redemption…." Where? IN CHRIST JESUS!
This is just touching the "truth as it is ‘in Christ.’" There is a lot more. But for now I’ll leave you with some quotes from Adventists back in the 1800s:
"Now what does it mean to us that Jesus Christ became the second head of this human family? It means this: Just as, when Adam was created, all the members of the human family were created in him, so also when the second man was created ‘according to God in righteousness and true holiness,’ all the members of that family were created in him.
It means that, as God saw in Adam all the members of the human family, so he saw in Christ, the second father of the family, all the members of the divine-human family; so he saw in him all his sons, all his daughters, all his descendants; all that belong to the family.
That is to say that Jesus Christ was the representative of humanity, and all humanity centered in him, and when he took flesh, he took humanity. He took humanity and he became the father of this divine-human family, and he became the father by joining himself in this way to humanity, and the flesh which he took and in which he dwelt was our flesh, and we were there in him, he in us, just as what Abraham did, Levi did in Abraham, so what Jesus Christ in the flesh did, we did in him.
And this is the most glorious truth in Christianity. It is Christianity itself, it is the very core and life and heart of Christianity. He took our flesh, and our humanity was found in him, and what he did, humanity did in him." [W. W. Prescott, "The Divine-Human Family," General Conference Bulletin, 1895, pp. 8,9]
"In Christ were united the divine and the human (all men)--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam (all men), the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man." [Lift Him Up, p. 345 Ellen White]
"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No, the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died (we died). Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the Sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race (all men) with His own blood. This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness." [Lift Him Up, p. 345 EGW]
"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was…done…by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. Christ took human nature that men might be one with Him as He is one with the Father, that God may love man as He loves His only-begotten Son, that men may be partakers of the divine nature, and be complete in Him." [S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, p. 927 EGW]
"In assuming humanity Christ took the part of every human being (all men). He was the Head of humanity. A Being divine and human, with His long human arm He could encircle humanity, while with His divine arm He could lay hold of the throne of the Infinite." [Selected Messages Book 1, p. 252 EGW]
"When the voice of the angel was heard saying, "Thy Father calls thee," He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," "Destroy this temple (He was speaking of his body - humanity), and in three days I will raise it up," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity (God) did not die. Humanity died (we died), but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will." [S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, p. 1113 EGW]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Saturday, March 4, 2000 - 04:03 pm:
Robert: You ask: "So where has S.D. Adventism gone wrong? The answer; In the 19th century it was the 1888 General Conference. In the 20th century it was the 1980 Glacier View debacle.
These two events represent the Adventist church rejecting Gospel Reform. At the start of the 21st century, it looks like Adventism may be offered yet another chance to make the correct choice and repent of its' arrogent and stubborn ways. No date or place has been set for this next, and perhaps last, oppertunity.
Moreover, there is no sign that the leaders will do any better in this century then in the past.
[The Adventist Church went wrong in allowing Jesuits to dominate the system through their falsehoods about free thought. That allows strange people to tell others when they went wrong or did things right regardless of any disagreement with them. The Adventist Church went wrong in allowing the Adventist Review Editors and key figures in all our educational institutions and media to bring in the Jesuit principle of diversity. The Adventist Church is now suffering from these same despotic figures who are dictating to us that she must change. In respect for diverse opinions, many Adventists are even shy to express their opinions about how things should be. The ones who taught them to be so shy were never in any way encumbered because of those who may disagree with them!
The Adventist Church went wrong in allowing people who told us that all views must be respected to tell it that it went wrong. The Adventist Church surrendered its sovereignty over to the Militia people of the Papacy!]