JESUIT DIALOGUES !! V
(Trouble on the Internet discussion
forums! ATODAY). . .
Probing the mind of Greg Billock!
Updated 12/27/2005
[Bob Lee and and everyone else responding now steps up to confront EC, for there is nothing wrong with Tom Norris at all:]
By Bob Lee (Rlee) on Saturday, January 1, 2000 - 07:07 pm:
Emmanuel, I'm sorry you feel discriminated against, [The magic word there is YOU FEEL. This is a clever way of taking the force of fact away from your adversaries. Adventists can only feel or perceive. The strange ones that allowed Tom to practice constantly tell us about their "facts." They cannot be allowed to state fact in a free thought environment.] I didn't mean to be push you so hard. But when you were promoting what seems to be a basic error, I found it difficult to keep silent. [Why did he remain silent when Tom violated free discussion? Why did he and the other strange ones allow Tom Norris to practice without any opposition? How can he answer the question? How can he acknowledge that he sees it?]
Let's start this discussion from a different perspective. There are two fundamental ways of looking at salvation. [Take note that at the moment the issue was Tom's manner of posting. Is there a way to detract from this?] The traditional way, used by older Adventists and some other Christians, is that Adam committed some kind of "crime" for which punishment was meted out, not only on him, but on all his prodigy. Call that a crime/punishment paradigm. Salvation in that paradigm consists of Jesus' paying that penalty for humanity, thereby allowing all who accept that "atonement" to be saved.
The other way to look at salvation is that Adam did something that resulted in the deterioration of his mental and physical functions. By himself, he was unable to undo the damage that would eventually not only kill him, but bring death and destruction to all humanity. So God sent patriarchs, prophets, Jesus, and now the Holy Spirit to teach humans how to repair and escape the damage caused by Adam's error. By listening to and obeying God's prescriptions, we can grow back into the perfection in which we were created. Call this a cause/effect paradigm. Dr. Ford was developing parts of this paradigm and many denominations understand salvation from this perspective.
You seem to have accepted the crime/punishment paradigm. Much of the wording you used when you tried to show "the gospel" in the 27 reflects this paradigm. The 27 specifically speak of "substitutionary," "atonement" used in the sense of payment rather than reconciliation, and "expiatory" which are legal terms involving crime and its punishment. The 27 say very little, however, about the privilege of communication with God (either through prayer or hearing the Holy Spirit), the freedom we have in God, nor about the help God gives us to do what we want to do. The mechanism which God has set up for our restoration, the privileges we have of being God's friend, and the assistance and guidance we have through the Holy Spirit are scarcely mentioned. When Jones and Waggonner and White tried to introduce this concept into the church in 1888, they were turned down flat. It wasn't until 1968 that a semblance of the cause/effect paradigm started to be accepted. And as I said in a previous post, that's when the church really started to grow. Dr. Ford may have some faults in his theology, but his explanations of justification and man's subsequent restoration probably weren't one of them. There is much more to the cause/effect paradigm. It has not been explored satisfactorily even yet. But it seems to be much closer to what God desires than the "works" oriented doctrines of the '30s to '60s from which the 27 were derived. Those 27, by the way, are a consensus statement, not a revelation from God, and should be viewed that way.
Tom has some problems with his theology, and I tried to call him on it (I probably have some problems with mine too, and I'd be glad to be called on that too). But it was trivial alongside the "works" and "legalistic" doctrines you seem to be pushing. That's fundamental. That is why I challenged you on it. I believe it is one of the things Ellen White spoke about when she said: "There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible" (Review and Herald, December 20, 1892). After all, it was she who tried to establish the "righteousness by faith" paradigm in the first place.
I know we have held this crime/punishment doctrine for "many years," but I believe it's time we came to grips with the problem and changed it.
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Saturday, January 1, 2000 - 09:09 pm:
The facts are plain. We either remain communists, or we give our religion over to free beliefs, which means that we give our religion over to the views of y'all. Let us leave Ellen White and go to Christ, you all say. "Christ" is merely your views.
I have shown that the Gospel is even more prevalent in the 27 fundamentals than in the Genesis account and even Isaiah. It was more specific. You may say this is not true. There you go: differences of opinion.
Bob, you said that the 27 Fundamentals is a consensus statement and not a revelation from God. The canon of scripture is also a consensus statement, and so are the sentiments y'all express. Still even now I see no wording against the anti-discussion essence of Tom's statements. It is not difficult to see why. Your statements are also drawing conclusions you are claiming are outside of the mirage free thought scenario.
All these words you give merely hide the awesome facts. You may play that you are not sure of what is truth like you must show that we cannot know it, but fact is you are all really here to more than direct us a certain way--a way contrary to our foundational beliefs with a pretense that they are being strengthened.
Ellen White can't stand before y'all, and neither can anyone else. Everything contrary to your views gets criticized and downplayed with a pretense of favoring all opinions. Freedom of belief merely means for us ultimately to surrender to your views. There is an underlying yet unmistakable unity between all of you.
That's allright. Gang up on me and pretend that you are not. Make me out to be an idiot and show my views merely to be a guess while yours are clearly biblical and fact. I have shown that the Gospel is clearly in the 27 Fundamental beliefs. Who can biblically show me that is not the case? Who can biblically show me that it is not in Genesis three?
No such a person will come. My words are merely a signal to joke around and ridicule the views of another because he does not agree with you and can prove what he says.
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Saturday, January 1, 2000 - 09:17 pm:
Bob, You misused Ellen White's words and used a common technique. If there is more truth to be revealed, why must that truth always come from the people who have to downplay and criticize Ellen White herself because she stands in the way of your plans?
Ellen White stated that there may be new truth to accept. Your new truth with Tom and the rest as a consensus closes up other truths that were found. I know that and you know that, but you don't seem too keen to undeceive our readers about that point.
What Tom is bringing is not any new truth. Any point that calls for the closing down of truths we have found and can prove is error. We have yet to see any new propositions announced to the SDA Church this time in earth's history which supported the truths we have already found. All of them follow straight along with the movements we have warned about. The result is all these around us who cannot afford to let the SDA Church be and live with Christ. They have a mission they have no business working with. They have to deal with the politics and policy of Adventism in order to force the members either to do things or to stop doing things they had been commanded by God to do.
In all these dialogues I state a point and I prove it. You all basically have the view that I am intolerant and am a communist, and state that you all support freedom of views. Your posts however demonstrate that you actually do not support views contrary to your own, but would attack them in a minute.
[EC is getting a little strong here. Now is time for stronger diversionary tactics. Subtle accusations and post-hypnotic suggestions also must be added:]
By Becky Schmidt (Beck) on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 03:54 am:
Yikes, Somebody get the hose....there's a fire or at least a lot of smoke over here...cough, cough., sputter, sputter.
"Everybody hates me...nobody likes me, guess I'll go eat worms..." I nominate this as the new tune for this thread. [Notice the accusations being planted in the "humor" so skillfully crafted by Becky here. We met many like her who believe that humor must be planted when earth-shattering issues involving much blood and souls are discussed LIKE CHRIST MUST ALSO HAVE DONE. And this is always done against their enemies! Only then can they bring up the issue.]
Slow down: Maybe a read of more of these threads would help you understand the makeup of this crowd and the experience might even be meaningful.
Intolerant, a bit heavy? Fiesty maybe. I have no idea your political affinity.
I believe that meaningful spiritual change comes only with conviction and that squarely on the shoulders of love and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Beckwonderin'
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 07:28 am:
Well Becky, What has changed since I came that you did not notice was going on all along? Cough, cough and sputter, sputter, not to mention a sudden congregating to this discussion after a "problem" arose is not going to take the Gospel out of the 27 Fundamentals, and not going to put the truth into the movement you appear to want just as badly as Tom. Neither has any truth been added to your statement, and there has been no continuance in the dialogue at hand, more specifically: is the Gospel in the 27 Fundamentals.
Let's now deal with the subject kindly. As a new movement y'all need to put some substance into what you want. You are now filling it with trifling and with jokes, and that merely backs up what I thought of the reliability of the movement y'all want in the first place: a joke.
This whole church is not supposed to change by a Beckyawonderin'. This must be a pretense. There is a mirage of wonderin' and a mirage of knowing all the facts in the Gospel.
What you need to know is that a crime was performed here a day or two ago, and, by my research, has been an ongoing thing. Tom has told us that the Gospel is not in the 27 Fundamentals. That's like going to a room filled with you guys in it, and the person says to himself loud enough for everyone to hear, "There's nobody in here!" This is insulting to the Gospel.
I have shown the points coming out of the 27 Fundamentals demonstrating the Gospel. I stopped after I posted point #10 labeled, "The Experience of Salvation." Here now are some more points in the 27 Fundamentals where the Gospel can plainly be seen:
11. The Church: The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)
12. The Remnant and Its Mission: The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)
14. Baptism: By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)
15. The Lord's Supper: The Lord's Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)
18. The Law of God: The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)
19. The Sabbath: The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
23. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary: There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)
24. The Second Coming of Christ: The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)
25. Death and Resurrection: The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
27. The New Earth: On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)
The Gospel is found strikingly in all of these statements. The reference shows the salvation, Who that salvation came about by, and often how it was wrought. What kind of blindness is it that would miss this? Did Dr. Death Desmond Ford miss it?
[Now is time to use the Bill Clinton approach with Monica Lewinski in making of none effect the truths that were just stated. Bill Clinton stated that what happened with his relationship with Monica depended on everyone else's definition.]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 08:36 am:
EC; It is obvious that our definitions of the gospel are very different. Pat Darnell has the right idea about making sure we are talking about the same gospel. So, I will post up the definition that I am using--which you will then be able to see is NOT the same as the definition used in the "27".
I fear you will not like or understand this updated (for SDA's anyway) protestant gospel, but at least you will then be able to better understand why I said it's not in the "27". I never meant to imply that there was not a lame attempt to reference or articulate this doctrine in the "27", for clearly #10 is just such an attempt.
EC: I realize that change is difficult and at times upsetting. But there are serious, complex theological problems that must be honestly and openly addressed. Don't take anything I say personally, rather get the scriptures out, read up on Adventist history, look up different commentaries, read Ellen White with an open mind and an eye on the historical context, and read Dr. Ford's interview on Atoday to become more informed about the issues. [In other words, DON'T DIFFER WITH ME!] We are all pretty much on the "same team" even though you seem to think otherwise. Happy New Year!
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 11:15 am:
Tom, There are terrible theological problems which can be overcome with honesty as you point out. You first need to make it plain that Ellen White forbids your meddling, and that your revisions oppose her, and that you cannot possibly pray to get them with her in the way.
You next need to confess that you have no intention whatsoever of having a free-thought environment, and you were therefore unjust in accusing us of being communists. You should never again try to make our position look less likeable by trying to convince people that we do not allow them to think freely, when you clearly do not allow the same. We do allow people to think freely and adopt to whatever they want. We just don't want them to continue as members here if their visions contradict with the truth. They are then free to go elsewhere and start their own enterprises to their liking in peace.
3. About your expected insistence that the Gospel you are talking about I am not referring to: Hebrews 4:2 tells us that the Gospel were preached to the OT people. I was talking about the Gospel from the BIBLICAL perspective, which is the only perspective I know of and expect biblical Christians to know.
The Gospel that was written in the 27 Fundamentals, was often far more specific than what was found in the OT. By the time of Christ, the whole nation of Israel could not understand the Gospel nor Christ. After reading the 27 Fundamentals, if they were provided to the Rabbis at the time of Christ, I doubt seriously that no one would know who Jesus is. You need to be more specific, for I hear the Gospel in the 27 Fundamentals in the same way and oft more specific than I find in many portions of the scriptures.
Other than that it doesn't look like anything can be wrong with you. Everything just has to be wrong with me.
Yes, the church does need change, and that change must be the same as was orchestrated at the turn of the century when John Harvey Kellog, Ballenger and others had the same incontestable, knock-down drag-out desires that you presently have. That way the problem will be dealt with, and there will be no more of the polarization, crisis and imminent death problem that you speak of.
In your changes, it is quite certain that ultimately people with my views will have to be dealt with and expelled. [Did you already have it figured out that EC wasn't just whistlin' Dixie here?] We have seen this worked out already and is ongoing, when members came to us with the mandate that we have to attach sacrilegious music to our worship services. This was done intentionally, knowing our views about it, so that we would get disgusted and leave, or that we would protest against it and ultimately would be criticized by those wanting change and would be sent away.
I do what I can to inform the people that from beginning to end, there can be no collusion with the enemy, and that the plans of the enemy are never to have coexistence with God's people, not even with false claims of a free environment.
I am speaking of the Gospel, and I am speaking biblically. I don't expect anything else from you.
I also believe that you stated that #10 of the Fundamentals did not have the Gospel? Well I refute that. It says:
10. The Experience of Salvation: In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)
That appears very clear to me. In this free environment, you are supposed to have a big problem with that!
By Becky Schmidt (Beck) on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 01:33 pm:
Emmanual, the penance king contender... Amazing....simply amazing.
If God made the American Otter, the platipus, and my cat; who entertains her, 10lb. plus frame, with chasing plastic waterbottle seals-sorta' sound like a hockey game in my kitchen. The same God who made me....Can't help but believe that he _must_ have a wonderful sense of humor.
Becktwinkle