JESUIT DIALOGUES !! III
(Trouble
on the Internet discussion forums! ATODAY). . .
Probing the Mind of Greg Billock! Cautioning us with the other Jesuits telling
us we have to understand that people will disagree with us, let's see what he
will deliberately ignore!!
Updated 12/27/2005
[When last we left this discussion, EC stated that Tom Norris was out to destroy the influence of Ellen White. Tom denied this while telling us that neither she nor any of the other Adventist pioneers can be used in discussion to debate the mandate that the Adventist Church must change and give up *some* of its fundamental pillars.]
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 08:53 pm:
Tom wrote: First, I salute your powers of observation. When you said; "Common logic shows us that something has come into the church" you hit the jackpot! And that "something" was the Gospel. This happened from 1975 to 1980. It was delivered by Dr. Ford. The leaders rejected this little "something" for fear that they might have to make some dreaded "changes" in what they had been teaching the people for so many years. So rather then admit error, they exiled Dr. Ford and prayed that everyone would forget what he was saying.
EC: This is a candid lie. Are you telling us that the Gospel is what hit this denomination and is what is destroying it since Y'all came here, and yet you cannot even see that the Gospel is in the 27 fundamentals? Did the Gospel open up this free thought you are demonstrating we will have if you and Dr. Ford are given power?
Are the other churches making "Gospel" changes also? Are they also being forced into submission? What then is the meaning of the following scripture:
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Scripture tells us that in the last days there will be major changes everywhere. But, contrary to what we are hearing, these changes will not be anything good, but will be secretly geared toward causing us to fall to the Beast of Revelation. What is therefore being done is that the Gospel is being used as a major stepping stone in order to unite the churches to Rome step by step.
Tom, you can see that you cannot accomplish what you are struggling for with Ellen White's writings. So, you first tell us that we are communists for not viewing things like you do, and then you must tell us that you would prefer to have our church free for all views to be heard. I can then see why it is necessary for you to tell us how Ellen White has been dead for so long and that we need other voices now to fill the fact that she predicted that people like you would appear to make war with and ultimately destroy this church.
If you Tom really understand the Gospel, how come you did not recognize the fact that it is very much present in the 27 fundamentals? Here are some of the points in which the Gospel is present so that we can get an idea what is happening:
4. The Son: God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
EC: The Gospel is clearly in this statement people! Didn't you see it?! The bible tells us that the Old Testament saints had the Gospel taught to them just like us. Can Tom point to it in the Old Testament? Here is where the Gospel is first found in the Bible:
Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The word "Gospel" is not there, but this is indeed the Gospel! The promise is there. The Saviour is there. Even the problem that caused the need for the Saviour is alluded to! The Gospel is there, but you Tom did not see it, but somehow you saw that the Gospel came into this church in the 1980s, and now we must be forced by the Gospel or else this body will die. Here again is the Gospel in fundamental #7:
7. The Nature of Man: Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)
Do any of you out there see the Gospel in this statement? You don't!! Tom, you told us that the Gospel was not there! Was the Gospel in the Ancient Hebrew Sanctuary? Was the Gospel in those rituals? Now listen to numbers nine and ten, for they are even stronger than the two other examples given:
9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ: In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)
10. The Experience of Salvation: In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)
I, of course, cannot list all of the fundamentals here. But there is much more there Tom! In order for you to see it, you need to become communist like you have called us also and resist the movements that are telling communists in no uncertain terms that we must move away and that nothing must stop the new views. Else, can you show us more examples of where the Gospel was to be found in the OT? Do not try to fool us into thinking that the word "Gospel" must be present in order for the actual Gospel to be present. The Gospel is all over the OT, and the Gospel is all over the 27 Fundamental Beliefs of Adventism.
It is unlikely for us communists to convince you, I know. But, since you do promote a free environment, I see little danger in you going any further to disrupt us when we have already told you that we don't want your revisions. If you start a new church and implement your new revisions, some of us may decide to go where you are, and there will be no problem. Can you please knock on the doors of our hearts and ask for admittance now instead of telling us what we must have?
Tom: You need to study all this history before you get into any real discussion. I suggest you start with a definition of what the gospel is and what it is not. I can tell from your analysis of the "27" that you are clueless about this primary doctrine. But don't feel bad, we were once all "clueless". I suggest that you read the long Atoday interview with Dr. Ford to become better educated on all this. (go to the moderated section)
Moreover, your wild charges that Dr. Ford or myself are "giving up the foundations of Adventism." is absurd. You don't know what you are saying, nor do you understand what the foundations are really all about. Again, you need to get better informed before you make such impolite and unproved charges.
EC: Tom, do you understand that you called those who refuse to accept your demands as communists? Your memory is failing here. Again, it really doesn't look so much like we are the actual communists here. No scripture was even given. Tom, did you come here for discussion or to construct a gas chamber for us? Can you explain yourself for your bulldozing attitude here where we must suffer the charge of being communists?
Tom: As for the prophetic concept that the three angels messages are alive and well today, here is a news flash about that; It is a 20th century myth that has never been true at any time in the history of the Adventist Apocalyptic. I understand that many, many, SDA's think it is true because this is what was taught, but like a number of other things it was never true. Not one SDA pioneer would support that myth. Listen to James White clearly articulate the true historic SDA position:
EC: It is true in a free and anti-communist environment. At least no one would be able to tell whether or not it is true.
Tom: "The second angel's message [verse 8th] has also been fulfilled . . . . . . . It is a well-known fact that the burden of the first message was given from 1840 to the first part of 1844. It is also a fact that the announcement, 'Babylon is fallen,' was made in 1844, and that the burden of that message, which called many thousands from the different churches, closed in the Autumn of 1844." Signs of the Times, p. 113, James White, 1853.
I agree with James white, Ellen White and the pioneers! All the pioneers clearly understood that these earlier messages have been "fulfilled" in the context of the Millerite movement back in 1844. So my position is not radical whatsoever but in harmony with the fundamentals that you claim to cherish.
EC: Nothing is a well-known fact in any free anti-communist environment that I know of! Why be in harmony with the Fundamentals now Tom? You were telling us we need to disrespect it, for your Gospel was not in it. What virtue is there in telling us now that you support anything to do with it. You want to oppose your gospel?
Please show me one statement where ELLEN WHITE stated that the First and Second Angels messages are finished, and I will look for some by her which shows that it is not. But yet, do you support what Ellen White says, or don't you. Sometime you appear to, and at other times she must be put out of the way along with everyone else who disagrees with you. You are jumping back from one position to another. Ellen White is a thorn in the flesh of your plans, so I do not understand why you would give her credit at all. She talks about aggressive people who will struggle to change the church and who will allow nothing to stand in the way.
Tom: Most just don't understand how the Adventist Apocalyptic really works.
EC: I do in a free anti-communist environment!
Tom: The SDA church is the "3rd" angels message--not the "three angels messages" as some say. Any yes, like I said, the first two messages have expired long ago--and this is beyond debate as every pioneer--including EGW would so attest.
EC: That's funny! I do debate it! Just like you could not see the Gospel in the 27 Fundamentals, you also cannot see that the statement you have made is being debated. That must be because I am the communist.
Tom: Also, while I am glad that you don't support a hierarchical system of corrupt control, I am mystified that you think that church management can be changed without reforming church doctrine.
EC: The hierarchical system can be changed without changing the Three Angels Messages, the Investigative Judgment, or any other foundational doctrine. Is your judgment really so much superior to mine why you cannot see that? I just see things just as differently as you have come among us to justify what you are doing based upon your different ideas and opinions.
Tom: As for Ellen White, no one is trying to "eliminate" her as you have charged. She is dead you know? We cannot really pull her into any contemporary discussion. It is written that the dead know not anything. Your EGW quotes are taken way out of context. If she were on line with us today, she would not support your position as you think. And she would laugh at your notion that the three angels are all flying together.
EC: In other words, you are saying that she can be brought into this contemporary discussion because you are swaying her words to fit your ideas. If she would laugh at me, then bring her on and stop telling us how dead she is because her writings oppose what you have planned.
Tom: She would also cry at how the church has treated Dr. Ford and the gospel. She would also roll over in her grave if she knew how corrupt and "off message" the church has become. She spent her life building up the 3rd angels message--including the now dead health message-and she would be in tears to see it ruined and irrelevant on the eve of the 21st century. You are clueless about both James and Ellen White as well as historic Adventism and what it stood for. Let them rest in peace.
EC: Paul the Apostle and all the rest of them are also dead. Therefore, according to what you are telling us, they were not as bright as you are either, for compared to you, they know not anything. Are you sure this is not pulling down inspiration as you have just denied here? Well then, if the prophets cannot be brought into any contemporary discussion, and us communists can't, who then is left as I gaze humbly into your eyes over a church structure you did not build?
I really would like a primary statement of this free anti-communistic environment you are telling us about as it relates to all the catastrophic statements you have submitted in this post. I would be very curious and would bring out the popcorn while I read!
Tom: In conclusion, get out the history books, open the scriptures and your eyes and start learning what the real issues are all about. Perhaps you can become part of the solution instead of the problem.
EC: I see that I must learn to be like you and to have your views. Then I would no longer be a communist? I'd rather be a communist in your eyes!
Thanks, but no thanks! We do not want neither you nor your Gospel. If you just give the situation a try and just move out of here for 6 months as a test, we will show you the solution to this dying body you are talking about. Wanna give it a try? Or am I making your hair stand on end.
[As Tom progesses, you will see that he will not answer the points or questions EC raised. He will still push his agenda in nonetheless:]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 08:54 pm:
Tom (speaking to Bevin): Good idea. Someone should write up some type of petition to stop the insanity. [of people who disagree with Tom Norris.] Who will volunteer?
Here's my list of dreams; [Who cares about your list!] #1. Bring Dr. Ford out of exile, with an apology to all. #2..Place the gospel in the "27", with an apology to all. #3. Reform the organizational system into a NT, non-tithing, democratic, congregational church model. #4.-Honestly update the Church's history and educate the members on the issues, making a number of gospel based changes to the "27". #5.Update the Church's eschatology for the 21st century. #6.Revive and update the health Message. #7. Overhaul the Educational system. # 8. develop various prototype church models. #9 etc., etc.
Numbers 1 & 2 can be done quickly. No. 3 would take a while to work out and implement as would the updating process in 4 & 5. Reviving the battered and bankrupt Health Message (#6) will also take some time and money. And so on....But the point is this-- Gospel Reform could be functional, swift and effective. Within a half decade, Gospel Reform could change Adventism from a dying , confused church into a model that could become a protestant powerhouse for the 21st century.
But this can never happen with outdated 19th century doctrines and 20th century myths. [Are they "outdated?" or were they EVER even valid! When was a "myth" ever valid!!] Adventism must be reformed in order to achieve it's eschatological objective. In fact, gospel reform is the only way out of the crisis. The longer this is denied, the longer the crisis will last. The Gospel must be placed before politics and personal ambitions in Toronto or the whole thing will just be a big waste of time and money.
[As you can see, Tom couldn't answer the points raised by EC. The rest posting on that forum therefore realized that a problem has arrived on that forum. They didn't notice any problem before EC arrived. Tom therefore leans back from dealing with the topic, while others step in to join the battle. Whenever strong points in favor with Adventism are rendered, some means must be acquired to drown out or dilute its influence. We will see the start of this right here:]
By Becky Schmidt (Beck) on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 10:36 pm:
What is this the Tom and EC show? Where's those time out chairs I used to have my 3yr olds spend time in when they were nasty to one another?.....someone's gonna have to shelve your cptrs for a week, or at least tape your fingers together...you rascals...Where'the resident Cyber Momma,(Irene) when you need 'er?
Wait til she sees what you boys are doing to each other.
Matt. 7:12
Beckafussin'
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 09:07 pm:
Becky: The Gospel is in the 27 Fundamentals as had been demonstrated. The Gospel is in the OT. Let Tom go through the OT and show us where we can find the presence of the Gospel all throughout it. To do so would condemn him as soon as you read the 27 Fundamentals, for they are even more clear outside of symbolism to the mission and work of Christ.
I also petition, having agreement with the present church and possessing the majority, along with the nomenclature "Communist," do stand before all to see just how Tom's free-thinking "capitalism" is going to oust me and the far more who disagree with him while maintaining that label upon us.
I am very aware that people who think like Tom have subverted every facet of this church and especially the controlling portions in order to change it over the dead bodies of their communists.
Let us however focus on that one point, which Tom claims is the nondebatable fact that the Gospel is not found in the 27 Fundamentals after I have shown that it was all over that document. Let us focus on the fact that the Gospel is also all throughout the OT. Tom repeating the lie is never supposed to make it graduate into the truth.
The Gospel is all throughout the 27 Fundamentals. Just let Tom take a deep breath and patiently answer the points that were given, and this battle will be a piece of cake! [This statement is so true, but Tom is a little too shrewd to commit suicide!] That will even sweep away the idea that we are merely third-graders bickering. Even that thought cannot wipe away the facts.
Ellen White is dead, but she has a prophetic voice and saw our day. She saw Tom herself. As I said, Paul is also dead, and every other known biblical prophet. You don't have to belittle inspiration to hold my views. You have been warned that a terrible quarrel and struggle will arise in the last days. You have been shown that the wrong side will have to belittle inspiration in order to get his dreams fulfilled. You have to do that in order to accept Tom's ideas. You have to criticize God's prophet as she saw what would happen in order to accomplish what he wants us "communists" to submit to.
My petition therefore stands before us also having the majority in its favor against Tom's. Remember that all the churches are pushing for ecumenism. In this push they will appeal to the majority in order to force all to de-communize themselves. I now can appeal to the majority, but I doubt it will make any difference to Tom for fairness. If Tom had the majority, he would appeal to that. Since I have it, the majority does not mean a thing to Tom.
To submit to what Tom is asking would be disastrous, and would only be a foot in the door to eat this church out alive far worse than the revisions he himself has stated.
The leaders of the United States had previously been fearful to call a Constitutional Convention, for they know that once it is called, it would wind up suffering far more catastrophic alterations than the promises given forth by those desiring to revise it. They understood that there are cutthroats present in every such appeal. If you submit to Tom's wishes, the changes will ultimately be much worse than he is telling us either at that same time the process will start, or soon after, and all such changes will always lead along with the great falling away to where the Man of Sin is revealed. You can put blindfolds on your eyes and predict without even a doctorate in prophecy. All such alterations always only lead one way. You give anyone just a foot in the door, and your denomination will be altered clear out of your hands. You will then be punished by the God who put this system in your responsibility.
Here is that prophetic voice again who told you not to eat of the forbidden fruit, neither should you touch it: Selected Messages Book 1, page 204, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Foundation of Our Faith
The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest [persecution: and we know that is coming, don't we?] would sweep away the structure.
Here is another warning not to eat of the forbidden fruit nor to touch it: Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 112, paragraph 1
God's Spirit has illuminated every page of Holy Writ, but there are those upon whom it makes little impression, because it is imperfectly understood. When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness. . . . Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. Let there be light, yes, light, in your dwellings. For this we need to pray. The Holy Spirit, shining upon the sacred page, will open our understanding, that we may know what is truth. . . .
Let's simmer down and deal with the points. The Gospel is all over the 27 Fundamental Beliefs!
Emmanuel