JESUIT DIALOGUES !! II
(Trouble on the Internet discussion
forums! ATODAY). . .
Probing the Mind of Greg Billock!
Updated 12/27/2005
[Tom Norris continues his response to EC (Emmanuel Clarke) after Emmanuel reproved him for his manner of posting. He posts as if no one else in the world exists who might have a different view. The problem is that you typically cannot notice this because, as with every person who works for Rome among us, they are too good at accusing others of possessing this same attribute, and they continue to portray that all they want is discussion and free views.]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 09:53 am: (Continuing)
Go read the interview with Dr. Ford. There is plenty of scripture there for you to study. Especially about the pre-advent judgment and how that doctine should be reformed in the 21st century. (IN FACT, THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY REASONS THAT SHOW THE DEMISE OF THE 3RD ANGELS MESSAGE. WHENEVER, DAN 8;14 IS UPDATED, THE ADVENT MOVEMENT ADVANCES TO THE NEXT MESSAGE. DAN 8:14 MUST BE UPDATED IN ORDER FOR ADVENTISM TO HAVE ANY CREDIBILITY. THIS UPDATING PROCESS WILL MOVE THE CHURCH FORWARD TO THE NEXT MESSAGE--THE FOURTH ANGELS MESSAGE!)
As for the Sabbath, neither Dr. Ford nor myself are attacking this fundamental pillar of the 3rd angels message. In fact, Dr. Ford is the best champion the Sabbath ever had in the 20th century. So you and EGW can rest easy.
Believe it or not, Adventism must be reformed by the gospel or it will become extinct!
[If you notice, the same figments of Jack Chick's very vivid imagination are also telling us that the Constitution is outdated and that the Geneva Convention is outdated. EC responds:]
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 06:22 pm:
Tom: You wrote:
EC: Take a deep breath and a good look around the Adventist community. The "majority" of thinking Adventists of have left the church a long time ago. See the empty pews and look at the decimated ministry. See the exiled Dr. Ford and note that the Gospel cannot be found anywhere in the "27". Also, note the never ending leadership corruption, the communist style censorship, the theological cover-ups and the continued lack of mission and message. (The health message died years ago).
EC responding: I see what you are saying. You are however stating that the "majority" of "thinking" (like you) Adventists have left. I dispute that. Yet with all you have said, the problem is that I did not notice this condition until people like you determining to tinker with the church and change everything have come around. This church has been around for over a century. Even when I was born there was no word I heard about it being in danger of being extinct. Something has happened over the years however. This phenomenon led us to statements from the Spirit of prophecy, including that last one that I sent you which said that the enemy of souls will come among God's people to tell them that the church needs reformation, and that this reformation must consist of giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith and to reorganize.
Common logic shows us that something has come into the church. The Spirit of Prophecy has prophecied:
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 112, paragraph 1
God's Spirit has illuminated every page of Holy Writ, but there are those upon whom it makes little impression, because it is imperfectly understood. When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness. . . . Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. Let there be light, yes, light, in your dwellings. For this we need to pray. The Holy Spirit, shining upon the sacred page, will open our understanding, that we may know what is truth. . . .
Here we have always known that a shaking is coming, and we were told that it would come through things that are introduced. That means through things that were not there before, but have come in. We watched it come in for decades, and when we would have moved to stop it, certain people came among us telling us that we must not do that because the wheat and the tares must grow together.
Now we can see that it is likely that the cause of the problem may well be complaining about the problem we had not witnessed before. Are you now telling us that we must deal with what was here before your entrance and change the system as had been the dream [of Satan] for ages?
I told you that you needed to at least submit scriptures for all that you are saying, and then you told me that I didn't submit any. I didn't have to because I did not submit an application to overhaul anything. The burden is supposed to be with you for what you are trying to do, and not with me. I am not trying to change anything.
You asked: While you are at it, try to find any NT justification for our unbiblical tithe based hierarchical system. You could win $10,000 if you can defend this fraud from scripture alone! (see the tithe string on atoday forum ) Why on earth you would defend this debacle from gospel reform is beyond my comprehension? Perhaps you have family on the church payroll?
EC: Who told you I was defending the hierarchical system? I wouldn't mind if you changed that, for in that you are not changing doctrine. Be my guest if you want. The problem is that most of what I hear you are targeting are things which you are certainly not qualified to target. Your gun is aimed right at Adventist foundations--DON'T TRY TO DENY IT! Save your breath!!
I also personally view the bible as a whole and complete and that the Gospel involves an acknowledgement of all scripture being given by inspiration of God. There are things I can find in the Old Testament that would be contextually applicable to us today, even if it cannot necessarily be found in the New Testament. I look for truth. I therefore do not have to isolate portions of the bible away when they conflict with my ideas.
You said: But at the very least, you should be thankful that you are free to speak your mind on this open Forum. Such freedom of speech is not tolerated in the official Adventist world that you are defending. Maybe you grew up in Russia and such things as freedom of speech are not valued. Or perhaps you are related to the "priestly caste" who have driven Adventism into the rocks and refuse to take responsibility for their misguided actions?
EC: I have no problem with freedom of speech, for I agree with the church. I read about the Jewish Church throughout the ages and noticed nothing of what you are talking about in that system either. I didn't witness such freedom even in the words of Christ and in His instructions. All I have to do is to leave the church, and then I am free to keep Sunday if I want. I don't see any threat to liberty there!
What I did witness was a period in the life of this church when it was clear near overturned. A number of my friends who were cast out of their churches were telling us how they allowed people saying the same words you are speaking to change their churches. After a very short time, those very same people completely overturned the churches they were attending, and when they protested the changes, they were declared to be critical and mean-spirited, and were cast out. From that they have learned more and more to trust the guidance the Lord has left. That includes the Spirit of Prophecy also. They were handled in just the way the Spirit of Prophecy told them they would be handled if they allowed their system to be changed.
You said: As for the concept that the three angels messages are closed, I note that you have failed to read your Adventist history correctly for it is a historical fact beyond dispute that the first two messages were closed up BEFORE the third was ever discovered!
EC: What were you saying about liberty of thought and now telling us that it is beyond dispute that the first two messages are closed up? Have you gone to the NT to show us this? If we allowed you to have your way, after time, would you allow us to have our views? Or will you proceed with the going norm to actually oust us and cast us out after time? I don't agree that the first two of the Angels Messages are closed up. I don't know what is this you are talking about that is beyond dispute in this system you tell us you are struggling to make free to all views.
You said: So only the concept of the 3rd Angels message being finished is "new". So your complaint against me must be reduced by 2/3rds. Moreover, while it is my position that the 3rd message has recently expired, that in no way is meant to convey that Adventism is over or irrelevant. Not at all! It just needs to move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic to the next message as the pioneers--and especially EGW--anticipated. I think many true Adventists would welcome gospel reform, especially considering the fact that if something isn't done soon the movement will become extinct. The health message is already "stone cold dead" and has been for years. [Time to insert the tyrannical accusation...] How proud you must be!
Make no mistake. The Advent movement is only a step away from a "fatal collapse". When it happens you will no doubt complain that no one took the time to save Adventism when it needed help. Perhaps we can all blame the devil so that we can avoid our responsibility in this matter? It would be interesting to hear your reasons (or anyone's) as to why you think the historic third message is still valid and functional today? (Please, no EGW quotes, she has been dead too long to be used in a contemporary discussion about Adventism. It's time for us to use our own minds for a change). A good defense of the historic 3rd angels message should also be worth a $10,000 prize along with the tithe challenge! Good luck!
EC: All of this sounds like the warnings given by the Spirit of Prophecy to me! Are you sure you want that free thought environment? How is it then that you are dictating to us that we must eliminate Ellen White and settle for your credibility? How is it that we are called the communists? No wonder your ideas necessitates the explusion of Ellen White. They are just plain FALSE! Yes, Ellen White has been dead for a long time. But people with your ideas are not that new either, for she herself had to fight with those who brought ideas similar to yourself.
Of course, anyone wanting to change the church would tell us that their reforms would not harm the church. There is nothing new in this tactic. Lucifer in heaven did not tell everyone there that heaven would be destroyed through his plans. He portrayed himself as a friend of heaven. You are going beyond mere policy into giving up the foundations of Adventism.
Why not try leaving the church with everyone else that wants change and then see if the problems that developed when "y'all" came would not leave also? It is like you to blame the innocent party for your own works.
You said: As for the Sabbath, neither Dr. Ford nor myself are attacking this fundamental pillar of the 3rd angels message. In fact, Dr. Ford is the best champion the Sabbath ever had in the 20th century. So you and EGW can rest easy. Believe it or not, Adventism must be reformed by the gospel or it will become extinct!
EC: Adventism always had the Gospel from the beginning. You are merely forcing your opinions on us to establish this mythical free thought establishment you are talking about. The Ancient Sanctuary had the Gospel message all throughout it. The Old Testament had the Gospel all throughout it, yet the word "Gospel" was never mentioned once within these two entities. The 27 Fundamentals also contains the Gospel, and this is the worst time for you to be spraying error upon us when you at least need credibility in order to fashion this entire body according to your preferences and opinions. We ourselves can see the problems, but we have come to totally different conclusions as to the cause. We were around when these problems you talk about did not exist, and thoughts of this body crashing also did not exist. Can your free-thought mirage defeat our "communism", as you term it, to tell everyone what has caused the problems since your entrance and how people like us who have slowed down the death process need to be dealt with?
I have gone to the website showing the 27 fundamentals http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/ and have noticed the Gospel being present in these particular points within it.
4. The Son 7. The Nature of Man 8. The Great Controversy 9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ 10. The Experience of Salvation 11. The Church 12. The Remnant and Its Mission 15. The Lord's Supper 18. The Law of God 19. The Sabbath 23. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary 24. The Second Coming of Christ 25. Death and Resurrection 26. The Millennium and the End of Sin 27. The New Earth
The Gospel was mentioned in some form or fashion, and sometimes strikingly in these many of the points given in the Adventist 27 Fundamentals. Just go there and read carefully without bias. You may disagree with this, but it was indeed you who told us about a free thought environment you must change this church into. It is quite clear that you are not telling us the truth.
It is to my understanding that Dr. Ford is telling all that the Antichrist is Antiochus Epiphanes and not the Papacy. The result of that is that Dr. Ford does not actually defend the Sabbath at all, but is merely whitewashing his real desires. Anyone who comes to that conclusion can give up the facade. Their greatest assurances of loyalty to the Sabbath is all a joke!
If you succeed in your plans, we only have ourselves to blame. For the Spirit of Prophecy told us not to entertain anyone who comes with the dreams and visions that you come with, or the denomination will be destroyed. By this we understand that you are nothing new. People with our thoughts existed way back in that day to this day continuously, AND SO DID PEOPLE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS. It is not because we have obeyed the voice of God why our body is in danger. It is because we have disobeyed it as it relates to those demanding change and calling us communists. We were told that to even dally with those of thoughts like yours is to have our whole establishment subverted and thence destroyed. Over the years I have seen a weakening of our thoughts and a strengthening of yours, with the church progressively suffering forthwith.
Emmanuel
[Some of the questions submitted by me against Tom Norris are here presented by Bob Lee:]
By Bob Lee (Rlee) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 08:25 pm:
Tom, I haven't read all of these posts, but what I have read are rather confusing. You state that the first three angels' messages are closed. I don't understand. The first one was to go to "every nation, tribe, language, and people." Are you saying that every tribe, etc. has heard the gospel? That every one has heard the message to "Worship Him?" I don't see that even today.
The second angel proclaimed that Babylon is fallen. So who is Babylon? Since by Rev. 17, she is riding a beast which we understand is the papacy, obviously she isn't the papacy. Who, then, is she? And what makes you think whoever she is is fallen? Especially if we don't even know who she is? Then the third angel. He says whoever receives the mark will drink of God's fury. So you are saying that no one is left to receive the mark of the beast? It seems to me that while the first angel's message is not finished, the second and third angel's messages haven't even started yet. How can you say they are finished?
Emmanuel You are distorting two messages that Dr. Ford has proclaimed. By his double or triple fulfillment principle (I never can remember that funny name he calls it), he believes that Antiochus was a fulfillment of some of those prophecies, but NOT THE ONLY FULFILLMENT. He's probably wrong on that, but that wasn't his major burden anyhow. It was just a sideline that gave people an excuse to reject his important message which was a return to the gospel and a rejection of pharaseeism (legalism).
You said "Adventism always had the Gospel from the beginning." That's not true. For many years, most of us older folk never heard it. Even today, much of Adventism still does not proclaim it. All we heard was "obey," "keep the commandments," and related imparatives like "give Bible studies," "pass out literature," "go ingathering," etc. Along with that was the continual threat that one "sin" would forever keep you out of heaven. It was works, works, works all the way. You can be glad if you missed that era in Adventist history. I'm hoping our SS lessons this quarter will help retire that problem. It is the false teachings of that disgraceful period that Tom is trying to eradicate entirely. True, he doesn't have everything figured out, but neither do any of the rest of us. You should be encouraging him in his efforts so we can all work together to find out how God really does want us to relate to Him.
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 08:47 pm:
So then Bob, tell me: What was it during that "disgraceful period" as you say that, as we are now giving it up it can be told that we are a dying sect, when back then we heard no such language? And what was the difference between Adventism back then and the Israelites? Did they know the Gospel before Christ?
You are talking about no one really knowing anything. Back then we appeared to know far more than we know now, for there wasn't all this confusion going working out to certain people presuming to have the right to change things.
I do not accept the idea that none of us may know the right steps to take. To put any such an uncertainty upon everyone only guarantees the supremacy of those who determined to change it.
When you have all definitions clearly meted out upon all over what is legalism, let us know. As far as I am concerned, you have not told me yet what it is, so I do not too accept it to be meted out to this church in former days.
One thing is known however. If Dr. Ford and others determined to change Adventism, present something to us that we cannot say no to, that is not the Gospel. Tom tells us that he wants a church with a free environment for opinions and discussion, and yet, along with you, defines for us what is the Gospel, legalism, etc. The very principle is self-condemnatory.
I have read the 27 fundamentals and found the Gospel all throughout it. Tom has read it and dictates to us that the Gospel is not there at all. How does this relate to the environment of free thought he is talking about that contrasts with us and makes us Communists?
Dr. Ford is another one. There is no way that the Antichrist can be Antiochus Epiphanes at all!
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 11:41 pm:
EC: Wow! I think you have confused Dr. Ford and myself with others. Hitler perhaps and maybe Joseph Stalin? Also, I don't think you took that deep breath as suggested. Now I need one. Whew, where to start...
First, I salute your powers of observation. When you said; "Common logic shows us that something has come into the church" you hit the jackpot! And that "something" was the Gospel. This happened from 1975 to 1980. It was delivered by Dr. Ford. The leaders rejected this little "something" for fear that they might have to make some dreaded "changes" in what they had been teaching the people for so many years. So rather then admit error, they exiled Dr. Ford and prayed that everyone would forget what he was saying.
That less then honest plan failed. The truth about the IJ and the gospel did not die as planned. In fact, it did not and will not go away at all. (the gospel can be a most stubborn doctrine at times). Dr. Ford's Gospel teaching has permeated the denomination in spite of everything. But this has caused a huge problem (which is why it was rejected in the first place by our wise leaders) because the gospel and the historic 3rd angels message are not a good fit for a number of reasons. In fact they are mutually exclusive, like oil and water. And it is this clash between the law and the gospel, that the SDA pharisees have been trying to control since Glacier View. And it is the fallout from this clash that has led to the twenty year Adventist "meltdown" that will continue into the 21st century. How ironic that the gospel has crippled the Advent movement! (Like Jacob of old when crippled by the Angel)
You need to study all this history before you get into any real discussion. I suggest you start with a definition of what the gospel is and what it is not. I can tell from your analysis of the "27" that you are clueless about this primary doctrine. But don't feel bad, we were once all "clueless". I suggest that you read the long Atoday interview with Dr. Ford to become better educated on all this. (go to the moderated section)
Moreover, your wild charges that Dr. Ford or myself are "giving up the foundations of Adventism." is absurd. You don't know what you are saying, nor do you understand what the foundations are really all about. Again, you need to get better informed before you make such impolite and unproved charges.
As for the prophetic concept that the three angels messages are alive and well today, here is a news flash about that; It is a 20th century myth that has never been true at any time in the history of the Adventist Apocalyptic. [The formatting was added by me here. This statement contradicts the other times when he told us it was valid, but now recently died and need to be updated. Those who believe in the reliability of the Spirit of Prophecy knew before hand that statements like this would sneak out.] I understand that many, many, SDA's think it is true because this is what was taught, but like a number of other things it was never true. Not one SDA pioneer would support that myth. Listen to James White clearly articulate the true historic SDA position:
[Notice here that, although he claimed that EC didn't prove his points with the scriptures, he is trying to prove that the Angels Messages are extinct using the words of some of the pioneers.]
"The second angel's message [verse 8th] has also been fulfilled . . . . . . . It is a well-known fact that the burden of the first message was given from 1840 to the first part of 1844. It is also a fact that the announcement, 'Babylon is fallen,' was made in 1844, and that the burden of that message, which called many thousands from the different churches, closed in the Autumn of 1844." Signs of the Times, p. 113, James White, 1853.
I agree with James white, Ellen White and the pioneers! All the pioneers clearly understood that these earlier messages have been "fulfilled" in the context of the Millerite movement back in 1844.
[Tom was already shown the chapters of the Great Controversy detailing the experiences of the Saints with the Sunday law, the message of the judgment and all by the time probation closes. I showed them to him a while ago before I was expulsed in the same way EC was. It was proven that Ellen White believed that the Three Angels Messages exist till the very time of Christ. He here ignores all of that.]
So my position is not radical whatsoever but in harmony with the fundamentals that you claim to cherish. Most just don't understand how the Adventist Apocalyptic really works. The SDA church is the "3rd" angels message--not the "three angels messages" as some say. Any yes, like I said, the first two messages have expired long ago--and this is beyond debate as every pioneer--including EGW would so attest.
[Again, notice the manner of his posting. If those supporting Adventism dared to say that any of their views were not debatable, or post in any where near the manner Tom is posting here, Greg Billock and the rest of them would have literally laid an egg! This was the question issued against Greg in his deliberate ignoring of those who fight against Adventism--the same question he ignored like the rest of them do when they are pushed to the wall and proven in error. It is tolerated here because there is an agenda that must be fulfilled against Adventism from the inside!]
Also, while I am glad that you don't support a hierarchical system of corrupt control, I am mystified that you think that church management can be changed without reforming church doctrine. Your statement that "I wouldn't mind if you changed that, for in that you are not changing doctrine" is sheer fantasy. To change the organizational system involves major doctrinal reform, including removing the false NT tithe doctrine that fuels our unbiblical church organizational model. There is plenty of scripture on this topic for you to study on the tithe string if you really want. Most people are shocked when they discover that there is no such doctrine as NT tithe. This NT tithe doctrine is another one of those myths that needs to be corrected. And this correction will lead to a different and much more open, democratic and biblical organizational structure.
[Now Tom has to make everyone believe that he is not opposed to Ellen White, while doing all in his power to destroy her influence. He therefore continues:]
As for Ellen White, no one is trying to "eliminate" her as you have charged. She is dead you know? We cannot really pull her into any contemporary discussion. It is written that the dead know not anything.
[We replied over and over to this person that the Apostle Paul is also dead. So is Jeremiah, so is David, so is Ezekiel. In this statement claiming Ellen White is dead and we therefore must ignore her and listen to he and his buddies, he condemned all inspiration!]
Your EGW quotes are taken way out of context. If she were on line with us today, she would not support your position as you think. And she would laugh at your notion that the three angels are all flying together. She would also cry at how the church has treated Dr. Ford and the gospel. She would also roll over in her grave if she knew how corrupt and "off message" the church has become. She spent her life building up the 3rd angels message--including the now dead health message-and she would be in tears to see it ruined and irrelevant on the eve of the 21st century. You are clueless about both James and Ellen White as well as historic Adventism and what it stood for. Let them rest in peace.
In conclusion, get out the history books, open the scriptures and your eyes and start learning what the real issues are all about. Perhaps you can become part of the solution instead of the problem.