JESUIT DIALOGUES !!
(Trouble on the Internet discussion
forums! ATODAY). . .
Probing the Mind of Greg Billock!
Updated 12/27/2005
By tom norris on Tuesday, November 9, 1999 - 07:52 pm:
Bill D.
I note for the record that your statement that "Mrs. White declared it (the 1888 gospel) was the beginning of the light which was to propel the little Advent body into the latter rain and loud cry" is correct. But I would like to point out that this was a clear apociliptic reference to the 4th angels message of Rev 18--not the 3rd angels message. In fact, it was those who were defending the law based, historical 3rd Angels message that were attacking Waggoner's updated understanding of the gospel.
[All the Jesuits claimed to have a PURE GOSPEL that EVERYONE MUST ACCEPT. For the record, although Ellen White defended Jones and Waggoner, she clearly accepted the Third Angels Message Tom here tells us is law-based and Ellen White even prophesied that it would be attacked in the last days. Again there is a dychotomy with Tom who at one point would tell us those doctrines were good for the times in which they existed, and at other times he would make statements revealing that they were never good or true and that he never believed them.
I personally confronted Tom and proved that all three of the Three Angels Messages are alive and strong today and will be so till the end. He responded in the usual way: he ignored my points entirely proving this and then submitted two questions he used to prove that the Judgment started at Christ's ascension contrary to Adventist teaching. Knowing that this was used to take all eyes off of his inability to answer the questions, I refused to answer his questions till he answered the ones I stated first. He then did all he could to shame Adventists for what he claimed was our inability to answer "two little questions." These trained to have no shame, will, in order to deceive, try to force shame upon their enemies. Watch as he shows things the Adventist Church MUST do and how those who accused us of being tyrannical cannot notice:]
So it is today. Dr. Ford is the modern day Waggoner, and Brimsmeade was AT Jones. Glacier View is also the 20th century equivilent of 1888.
The fact of the matter is that the Gospel will not fit into the 3rd angels message. It is impossible. That is why the church must move forward--with the gospel--to the next Advent message. This in turn results in an eschatological updating as well as major NT reform. This is what I have been trying to communicate to you for some time.
The 3rd Angels message is finished. The 4th is next. Today the Advent movement is living between the 3rd and 4th messages. Time to move forward or the movement will die.
[Note now the question posed by Becky Schmidt to Tom, for it has relevance to what we discussed in the Jesuit Infiltration links. The question essentially is: if all are to have their opinions, as those demanding to change the church always falsely claim, how can the church change to any unified form or consensus? Different people have different desires and preferences on what changes they might want or prefer. SOME (the majority) want no change at all! What is a crusader figment of Jack Chick's very vivid imagination storming forums hiding his true colors under a crusade for disagreement then to do? We already explained that this is impossible under the principles, but that it will happen anyway because we are under a conspiracy by people who have not changed in centuries! You can find this in the Jesuit Infiltration links. Here is the question:]
By Becky Schmidt (Beck) on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 10:13 am:
Tom,
I can agree with some of what you say about the need for adaptation for 21st century, but I am at a loss as to how this can effectively be done and maintain the integrity of the faith. If atoday forums is any indication, there are so many snipits kept and thrown away it seems all an SDA christian is left to do is make a crazy quilt, of it all. No particular pattern, no particular shape, pieced wherever it can be, and bearing no general design except that of disorganization.
So many combinations are immerging here the head spinning is; well nauseating. I suppose better verbage and less personal attack by all involved will help. But I still think that the basic SDA christian reading through here, will get completely lost and discouraged at best.
I am hopeful that more articulate and thoughtful thinkers, & Theologians, will be able to form some conhesive statements as to the different views and stems.
While it is just tough going to discuss many of these issues, seems daunting as to how to practically apply such huge info....to local level.
At this point, we are, like it or not, in the whirlwind of change and the sorting is difficult at best. While I find many of these discussions intreging, many, many others either can't keep their attention, don't follow, or are not personally equiped to discuss issues without getting personally involved and defensive... I suppose if nothing else, they provide a chance to see things from some other perspective...But without some organization to the thing, well...it's all flotsom.......I fear???
[Listen now carefully to Tom's confident reply. If you have read through the Jesuit Infiltration links, you will know why his answer is the following and why it is stated with such confidence:]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 04:00 pm:
Becky; During periods of transformation and change chaos is normal. But in spite of all the confusion a pattern will emerge and a clear path will appear.
[Believe him folks! We saw it with the Celebration Movement that stormed this church to this day. All of a sudden people started bringing electric guitars and all into church for music; drama was started on the rostrum during divine service; the word "celebration" was constantly sounded through out ears; we saw church after church being taken over and pastor after pastor being sent to accomplish this. No debate was actually tolerated, nor was any dissent allowed. Many lost their church homes for standing up to this. It is because these are the soldiers of the Pope who put their enemies into debate in order to destroy the doctrine and systems as they infiltrate every area. They then move in between the conflicting fashions that canceled each other out, and then used their captured positions to force-change us.]
And yes, there needs to be an organized, united reform movement started in order to get through all this confusion and uncover the correct path. Atoday is helping by allowing this website to exist and these discussions about reform to take place. But you are correct, there must be a more concentrated effort to reform Adventism. Dr. Ford has done his part--and is prepared to do more--, but others need to step up and make a commitment for gospel reform. We need new adventist leaders who will come forward and reform adventism before there is nothing left to reform.
[Tom Norris is lying here. We already have those treasonous leaders up at the top. They are already doing their utmost to covertly accomplish what Tom is here demanding. The reason why they can't push it yet is because of the opposition they are receiving.]
The process of gospel reform within Adventism has started, but it needs to get focused and organized. I am open to any ideas anyone has on the subject. Open up a thread and get people focused and committed to reform. Adventism is full of powerful truth that cannot be owned or controlled by any group. When updated properly, it will cause a real stir.
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Sunday, December 12, 1999 - 11:12 pm:
Here's a reform clue: Within the Adventist Apociliptic, whenever Danniel 8:14 is corrected, adjusted and/or updated--the church has moved forward to the next message.
Dr. Ford has made the case clearly and strongly that Dan. 8:14 must be corrected. The correction of Dan 8;14 and the discovery of the gospel, plus the changes in the world all work together to promote and force a much needed paradigm change from the dead and dying 3rd angels message to the new and contemporary 4th message of Rev. 18. That is the future for Adventism.
[Now hear comes Emmanuel Clarke. You have now witnessed the nature of the postings of Tom Norris. What you have read thus far, still actually does not scratch the surface. He claims to have different ideas, just like others do, but he is different. He constantly demands that the controlling center of the church affecting those who disagree, must change. The rest of the figments of Jack Chick's very vivid imagination constantly active to tell us they must move when someone who is demonic enough not to allow others to disagree, cannot notice. Your mind should therefore revert back to the statements Greg Billock made after defrocking Emmanuel from the Atoday forums with the reasons he stated for doing this.]
By Emmanuel Clarke (Emmanuel) on Sunday, December 26, 1999 - 06:57 pm:
WOWEE!! I have not seen such language except in the warnings the Spirit of Prophecy has given us about such language to ultimately hit our church!
Tom Norris has really shown himself.
I happen to disagree entirely with him. He is merely expressing his opinions on this forum, and he needs to keep it his opinions.
I have not seen any biblical basis or reasoning given for him to tell us that the Three Angels Messages are finished. I see no reasoning for why he could conceive that anything near a majority in Adventism would take his views seriously, and I'm not too sure if that would matter to him anyway.
Tom, you need to present more scripture and less of your theories for the thunderous things you are presenting. You have a strange interest and obsession that will affect the lives of crowds of people who do not agree with you. You need to give it a rest and concentrate on the Saviour. Forget about control, manipulating and changing things and focus on your relationship. Else, the best thing to do is to create your own church.
Who are you going to convince with your words? And, do you really care who you convince, just so you get what you want? Is what you want what the church on a whole wants? and if not, do you care?
What is the meaning of these words:
Selected Messages Book 1, page
204-205, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Foundation of Our Faith
The enemy of souls has
sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place
among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving
up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a
process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result?
The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church,
would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles
that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as
error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be
written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders
of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of
course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would
be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach
that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their
dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation
would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.
Now we are being told that
we must forget about these words or the structure would be swept away. We have
150 years to prove that anyone who thinks like us would be swept away. We had
enemies all that time and still remained. Now we must try the inconceivable
or else we would be swept away! Maybe we should have changed well before this,
and we probably would have been still here! Are we facing people who will allow
nothing to stand in the way?
UNBELIEVABLE!
[Tom now responds, and within his response he commits a major error. He will not admit to that error:]
By Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 09:53 am:
EC; Take a deep breath and a good look around the Adventist community. The "majority" of thinking Adventists of have left the church a long time ago. See the empty pews and look at the decimated ministry. See the exiled Dr. Ford and note that the Gospel cannot be found anywhere in the "27". Also, note the never ending leadership corruption, the communist style censorship, the theological cover-ups and the continued lack of mission and message. (The health message died years ago).
While you are at it, try to find any NT justification for our unbiblical tithe based hierarchical system. You could win $10,000 if you can defend this fraud from scripture alone! (see the tithe string on atoday forum ) Why on earth you would defend this debacle from gospel reform is beyond my comprehension? Perhaps you have family on the church payroll? That would explain a lot.
But at the very least, you should be thankful that you are free to speak your mind on this open Forum. [Oh really?] Such freedom of speech is not tolerated in the official Adventist world that you are defending. Maybe you grew up in Russia and such things as freedom of speech are not valued.
[In other words, Tom is insinuating that EC is a communist. This is just a nicer way of making an accusation: part of the very thing that EC was expelled for according to Greg Billock.]
Or perhaps you are related to the "priestly caste" who have driven Adventism into the rocks and refuse to take responsibility for their misguided actions?
As for the concept that the three angels messages are closed, I note that you have failed to read your Adventist history correctly for it is a historical fact beyond dispute that the first two messages were closed up BEFORE the third was ever discovered!
[Notice that Tom is saying that no one came to discuss his views. His views are beyond discussion. Would you, dear reader, be disappointed if I told you that this is the actual way all those demanding that we debate Adventist doctrines actually think? And that they hide this even through accusing others of possessing their attributes?]
So only the concept of the 3rd Angels message being finished is "new". So your complaint against me must be reduced by 2/3rds. Moreover, while it is my position that the 3rd message has recently expired, that in no way is meant to convey that Adventism is over or irrelevant. Not at all! It just needs to move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic to the next message as the pioneers--and especially EGW--anticipated. I think many true Adventists would welcome gospel reform, especially considering the fact that if something isn't done soon the movement will become extinct. The health message is already "stone cold dead" and has been for years. How proud you must be!
[I personally already proved that the Third Angels Message exists. The national and global Sunday law has not even come yet. Will this message die before it is even fulfilled? Tom could not answer my questions, but he is still here pushing the same lie upon EC after Greg already expelled me for the same reasons. Just assume now what is the fate of anyone who can prove that these are not friends of Adventism in any wise.]
Make no mistake. The Advent movement is only a step away from a "fatal collapse". When it happens you will no doubt complain that no one took the time to save Adventism when it needed help. Perhaps we can all blame the devil so that we can avoid our responsibility in this matter? It would be interesting to hear your reasons (or anyone's) as to why you think the historic third message is still valid and functional today? (Please, no EGW quotes, she has been dead too long to be used in a contemporary discussion about Adventism. It's time for us to use our own minds for a change). A good defense of the historic 3rd angels message should also be worth a $10,000 prize along with the tithe challenge! Good luck!
Also you criticism that says: "Tom, you need to present more scripture and less of your theories for the thunderous things you are presenting" is interesting considering the fact that you produced no scripture in your post--choosing EGW instead to support your positions. Ironic isn't it?
[When Tom is asked to prove that the Three Angels Messages are finished, he never turns to the scriptures, he goes to the writings of James White and others who believed that those messages were finished after the Great Disappointment of 1844. Yes, Tom was alerted to this, but he doesn't care what he has to do to accomplish his purposes. Remember: Jack Chick has a very vivid imagination!]