JESUIT DIALOGUES!
Updated 05/09/03: made easy to print out
CA was just presented with the unconquerable testimony of Jesus Christ Himself about the immutability of the law of God: the Ten Commandments contained in Matthew 5:17-19. Let's see what methods she uses to weasle out of it, and let's see if she will use the name of Christ for this dark purpose.
Remember the questions to be asked however:
1. Are they here for discussion and for healthy interaction of views as they claim? Or are they here to do whatever they can to make their opinions dominate?
2. What will they do if their points are defeated?
CA states: While related, this is a distinct issue from Christ having fulfilled the law and the prophets, and His meaning of Matthew 5:17-18. He clearly states He is NOT come to destroy, but to fulfill. He then clearly proclaims not one jot or tittle can pass until all be fulfilled. The question then remains: Did Christ fulfill all, or did He not?
I understand Him to have fulfilled all. I do not understand this to mean "destroyed". I understand it to mean that Christ completely fulfilled all requirements of the law for obedience and all requirements of the law for the payment of its penalty for disobedience. In simplest terms, this means that all theological placement and consideration of the law and the prophets must answer to the Gospel of Christ, for the Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. Any understanding of the place of the law or any of the prophets' writings which does not first answer to the Gospel of Christ is invalid for the Christian.
[What CA is trying to do here is to tell us that the all things being fulfilled that Christ talks about is referring to the very law itself. In that she has completely ignored Christ's statement, "Till heaven and earth pass." It was that He was referring to when He talked about all things being fulfilled. According to her, Christ made that statement, "Till heaven and earth pass" only to make sure that what He is then stating remains true for only about a year or two till His death! Were those cataclysmic words placed there just to guarantee that what Christ says remains true for only a year or so? She is now therefore saying that Christ didn't come to destroy the law, but only came that it might be declared that we no longer have to keep it. Of course that makes sense to her outwardly, but she is just one of that great army determined that their agenda must be supported by all means possible, even if they have to shout fables into reality or swarm in words of support to accomplish the same.
There are ways to see beyond this however, and we can start with the parallel scripture to this one in order to show whether the expression, "till all be fulfilled" is referring to the law itself or is referring to everything involved in human history, including the fulfillment of all prophecy.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
From this we have the expression of heaven and earth passing again and we therefore have an eternal principle that shows the clear intention of the Lord upon this matter.]
I respond: In other words, many OT scriptures are invalid for the Christian and must contradict what other inspired people have written! CA continues:
Christ as fulfillment of all calls for nothing less radical than an entire revision upon our view of the Old Testament scriptures and how we are to understand them. They must all answer to the Gospel, and be understood only in the light of the Gospel.
[Here we get to understand what we're dealing with. Is the question answered as to whether CA is encouraging debate and diverse views to prosper? Or is she determined to do what she can to make her views dominate? Look at the statement she has just made above, and think.]
I respond: There is no thought of any man being persuaded in his own mind here! We must fashion our minds according to "the gospel," and guess whose interpretation of that gospel must prevail! It is already because CA’s interpretations are false why there must be a separation between the Old and the New Testaments! The Gospel was preached in the OT!
Did you find your way through those words of CA? One already posted to me and complained of difficulty in understanding my posts. Maybe they can appear on this thread and explain the "simple" things she has told us here. What have they figured out here with CA? Well let me show you some very clear words:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore [meaning whosoever with reference to what was just said] shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
What other explanation could there be then for these people who are here to force change our denomination? What is the reason!! Here is much complex words flattened by the plain simple red letters of the Master Himself!
Speaking of the OT saints, the scripture says:
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
We therefore see that they received the Gospel CA talks about also. Question, did they keep the law? If not, ask yourselves if they were admonished to keep the law by the holy prophets?
Something obviously stinks around here! Why does CA then state the following:
In the Old Testament, the place of the law was upon this wise: "Obey and live, or disobey and perish." In the light of the Gospel, we find the whole world concluded under sin, thus the futility of believing obedience can be rendered to the law in full satisfaction of all its demands, including the demand to love perfectly as God loves. We find that the place of the law is as a schoolmaster, to lead us unto Christ, but that after faith is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. We find that by the law is only the knowledge of sin, not the knowledge of redemption; the knowledge of redemption is through faith in Christ. We find that the law can only kill us, not bring us to life -- or more to the point, it can only discover us to be dead, "dead in trespasses and sins". We find that the place of the law, therefore, is not to tell us what we must do to please God, but to point out how far apart everything that is in us and of us lies from being acceptable unto Him, and that Christ alone rendered an acceptable service, which is accounted to us by faith in Him. What is this faith in Him? Simply that we accept His fulfillment of all as a reality, an established fact, and one offered on our behalf in exchange for what we ourselves can never become capable of doing ourselves. This faith is comprised of both these components: the impossibility of our keeping the law to the satisfaction of God's pure, righteous, and holy requirement, and the complete sufficiency of Christ's life and death in redeeming us. Simply put, He fulfilled all so that we would not have to, since we were not capable of doing so in the first place. It is, indeed, the Gift from God.
[Please look at the statement she has made about "reality, an established fact," and compare in order to answer the question as to whether or not CA is here to debate or to tell us what is what. Often Jesuits would approach us and tell us that doctrine and prophecy is confusing and debatable, but that the gospel is clear enough for a child, just so long as it aligns with their interpretation. This has always been a lie. Even during the Dark Ages and Protestant Reformation the gospel has been under debate thanks to the agents of Satan. Even the question of the place of the law for the life of the Christian is under debate and bears significance to the Gospel.
The debate business in freedom of thought was always only a ploy to let their despot views in. After they get their feet in the door, it is then time to attack every other view that remains beside theirs. Infiltrating positions of leadership and influence is crucial to the fulfillment of their plans.]
I respond: Therefore, according to CA, when people sinned in the OT and God punished them, God was being unfair, because He was not intelligent enough to understand what CA, being more intelligent, has figured out: human beings cannot keep God’s law even with His aid!
Was the Gospel in the OT? We found out that it was. Were they taught obedience in the OT? We know that they were. What then is all this CA is telling us about?
CA is actually abusing the scriptures of Paul under which there is a divine warning which says:
2 Pet. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Much of what Paul states about the law is about its condemnation. The Law is holy, just and good alright, but this is not naturally good news for those who are already convicted of breaking it. Paul therefore focuses on the other angle of the law. He is stating that since Christ came, we are no longer subject to punishment for breaking the law.
When I was growing up in school, I lived in a rather primitive area. At school there were teachers and there was the schoolmaster. The focus and function of the teacher was to teach, and at times they would discipline. The Schoolmaster was not known for teaching lessons. He was more known for teaching us A lesson. It was a serious thing when you were referred to the schoolmaster, for he was specially known to be able to inflict pain. Paul is talking about the condemnation of the law. Yet this accounts for the reason why those who err, must devote much time to the writings of Paul in order to prove their points. They cannot bear to stay with the clear words of Christ.
Remember that Eph. 6 tells us,
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
What words to be quoting when the Apostles are supposed to be doing like CA: teaching everyone not to regard the Law! Paul used these words in casual conversation, showing that he understood that the Ten Commandments were still binding at that time. He most clearly did not accept CA's view of the matter! Would you ever catch CA dead quoting words like these when she is already doing what she can to show that regard for the Ten Commandments at all is dangerous for the Christian? What use is it having the sacrifice for sin, if no one is to even understand the conditions that made it necessary to have that sacrifice, but are being taught to get themselves in trouble again and again and again? It was through transgression that we needed the Saviour. What are we supposed to do after that?
All that needs to be added now is pressure from persecution to keep Sunday. If you have even one doubt about the message God has given us, they have scored a victory. You must be silly if you think that these will even come teaching the Pope about their Gospel even though the Pope has already written Dies Domini and called for the observance of Sunday out of loyalty to the Ten Commandments. These even seemingly being neutral and pushing in a gospel that denies the entire law, are working for the benefit of the Man of Sin!
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